battleplane attack: balance problem

My opinion is that presently the red side has a sufficient advantage as to their capabilities of air-to-ground attack of the fields. This was probably the reason why the Reds won 10 times vs. only 1 victory of the Golds in the last map.

I believe that this advantage comes, to a large degree, from the fact that the red planes have a better variation of loadout ordnance. This advantage gets even bigger after HVAR rockets and FM-2/P47/P51/F6F5/F4u planes become available.

At the Beginning of TOD some 8 or more RS82 rockets are typically used to kill any "light" target during ground attack, whereas, starting from the middle of the TOD, a decent ground-attack pilot who has a P51D with 10 rockets can kill 4 targets at the first pass (acks, radar, fuel, radio) and 4 more during the second one. After that he will still have 2 more rockets left for hmacks.

What do the Golds have to oppose that?
The Gold planes only carry 2 rockets or 4x50kg bombs or 1 250-500kg bomb.
Obviously, attacking with the 50kg bombs is much more dangerous and time-consuming than that with rockets. I intentionally avoid discussing the bomber planes and comformity of their loadouts with the historical data.
Most of the gold bomber planes' loadouts are historically correct (i believe it is, to some extent, due to -illo-), but this cannot be said about the red bombers' loadouts (can they possibly be called the cheat ones?). I am sure that we can forget the compliance with the historical data here for the gameplay's benefit, and let the golds' planes carry more ordnance.

I suggest that you do the vote or offer your own variant to solve the problem of different ground-attack capabilities of the sides.

P.S. I was glad to see some additional ordnance loadouts for the gold planes in the last update. However, after doing one TOD for the Red side, I see that ground-attacking is really a piece of cake for the Red.

P.P.S. (russian): Убедительная ПРОСЬБА ВАМ НЕ ГОЛОСОВАТЬ, если Вы уже проголосовали в Дженерал. Хотелось бы видеть отдельное мнение англоговорящей части пользователей хоста.

 

Nevermind.

Only realistic loadouts here.


Maybe introduce planes like early Fw 190s. Maybe 190G-1 too.

Also Stuka with 2x20mm mg151/20s (ju87d-5) would be useful.

(btw. ack accuracy now makes strafing suicide in most gold planes)


I don't see huge disparency though.

Maybe allied rockets seem bit over effective. (compare to axis 55mm r4m, not to huge 210mm WGr mortar).

 

Thank you for joining this thread illo. I know as the best protector of "real loadouts" and "historicity" at FH.
Golds have WGr.21 rox which is air-air rox, why they are using rox to attack ground targets?
Check out for new loadouts in FHL 1.50 of Red planes:
F4U4: 8xHVAR rox + 2x1000lb bombs
F6F5: 6xHVAR rox + 2x1000lb bombs
Are you sure this loadout is historically? I am asking this because I never heard about this loadout.

It will be nice for begining of the war. But the most crying injustice is at the end of war.
Example: What FW190D9 with 2 x WGr.21 rox can oppose to P51D with 10 x HVAR rockets.
The average pilot on P51D can easily close the small field himself without any risk to be hit killing acks. The HVAR rockets become the great in 1.50 update.

Sure, while as red pilots can be free of strafiing from begining to the end of TOD.

Please advice, when the 55mm r4m rox was implemented?

 

avail only at 262 and 190F8. They're also A-A rox

 

sad but true - those loads are realistic. In early war Germans was using Stukas, and Jabo 109s, and they are better jabos than early red planes. In late war most fighters was used for fighting with allied heavy bombers, and there weren't many jabos in use.

So i voted for 1st option - "more loads"
I also think, that goving Henshel-129 (something like german Ił2) would change sittuation a bit. But still late allied fighters (P-47, P-51, P-38) was better in ground attacks than 109 or fighter versions of 190. There still is good golds jabo - 190F8. US NAVY planes such as Hellcat or Corsair - there were realy deadly machines, but with heavy load there're easy targets for any other figher.

 

What about this for an idea....Lets get rid of the reds then we can all fly for gold.....

If you realy want to do something for the GAME make it so the red planes can keep up with the gold planes.... lets face it in RL the spit and tempest could not only keep up in most cases they could out fly most gold planes.... but thats life in this GAME....


As you may gather i think it should stay the way it is if in RL the red planes were fitted out with bombs and rockets and the gold planes were not so be it .... Give the reds the A-bomb.

Also at the start we don't have 20mm cannons....

 

can't see the imbalance, just more coops in the red side than in the gold one...

 

I believe realism in the models will see natural balance. Maybe its an idea to restrict plane percentages to realistic levels? e.g. only letting a small percent of 262s be available, say 12 for 60 golds in arena or something like that, applied to all planes in arena in rps. It would certainly add to the realism and stop the glut of flyers for excellent a/c like la7 262. Just an idea.

As was stated in another thread a side may have had superior aircraft but if it didnt have them in numbers it couldnt help. Opinions?

ps

I was wondering how it could be implemented? First come first served basis? Maybe a streak of 5 to qualify for limited numbers? Or only get a 262 flight for say every 4 sorties.

 

R4M was also ground attack rocks afaik.


WGr.s should be removed imho since they are used out of their real role.

Also i never have seen picture of any allied plane carrying rockets and bombs at same time.

 

I know for a fact any time I have faced a spit pilot who is worth his salt, he can use ACM to get the better of me. The 109 has 1 single advantage, its climb rate. Are you denying that is correct?

You can out-maneuvre, outturn, dive better than a 109 and as far as i know the straight line speed difference is negligible. Exactly how many more advantages do you want?

And what exactly was your point anyway?

-glas-

 

I think too there should be some restrictions to plane types.

 

Not convinced it's any good, fire it at targets other than AA's and they do nothing.

6 R4M's fired at a radar or feul and nothing.

Malino

 

For me personally, the 262 is a novelty plane. Because of its short existence in the ToD, invariably Im at work, sleeping or otherwise busy when it appears. On the very rare occasions im in the arena and its available, I usually have 4 or 5 sorties then get sick of flying the thing in to the ground and go back to my dora.

I still feel that if the 262 was made available at its historically correct time, and was either undermodelled a bit or restricted, then you would no longer have the 'Jet day' problems that so many reds are quick to whine about. The rox on the 262 are crap for ground attack and the fact is that as long as the con has enough savvy to use his SA, the 262 pilot should never really get a kill cos it is too damn fast to maneuvre once a con pulls a defensive turn.

Making it available earlier means you dont have the rush of Golds thinking 'only 4 hours to fly this thing, better get up in it asap'. Undermodelling it (which i would prefer to restricting it) makes it less attractive. Keeping the status quo simply means that the problems that exist in the last few hours of the ToD will remain.

If any restriction was to be imposed, i believe the streak-related restriction would be fairest. The 262 in RL was only made available to the best pilots Germany had so you could reflect that in the Arena.

Just my tuppence worth

-glas-

 

how about using industry % to limit availability of planes?
100% industry produces x number of y plane in one day
exemptions will be needed early in the war when few plane types are available

 

Sorry for going bit off-topic.

Yesterday, as many other days too I was seeing many reds with il-2s and pe2s doing suicidal attacks to our last fields. eg many il-2s shooted all their rox and then willingly crashed to field, just to get new plane up asap. This partly increases the imbalance because reds got more player and gnd attack planes at the moment and so using more this tactic.

I'm sure many golds do that too. But I think that kind of actions should be discouraged at all cost.
Say, you got 'death streak' which builds every KIA sortie you make in row and adds, say, 20secods before you can take off again. So Dstreak x 20sec = Time to re-take off. You could decrease Dstreak by doing rtb after, hmm, 400(?) seconds sortie. I try to clear myself little with the table below-).

Code:

Sorties:               DStreak
RTB+ KIA                  =0
RTB + KIA + KIA           =1
RTB + KIA + KIA + RTB     =0

About on-topic:

I agree that there are sicnificant imbalance with ground attack capasity. Homever I'm not sure if variating loads is the right way, it sure is easiest. I agree with illo and others that historical accuracy should be maintained.

Agree, That could be introducted with the new planes appearing currently only at the big fields, by changing that so, they would be avail at every field, but restricted to only some amount per arena day

 

I think the ack accuracy setting is having a major impact on field capping abilities also.

Reds have better buffs, faster and fly higher. In addition it has been shown in this post that their jabos carry far greater loadouts than Gold planes. Until the 190 and 110 carry rox, Golds have to take their chances trying to drop eggs on to acks which carries a far greater risk than firing off a rocket when your still 1000m from an ack that hasnt even fired at you yet.

I still believe that the ack accuracy changes benefitted reds much more than Golds for the reasons stated above. We rely on jabo attacks but early war survival in doing such attacks with 4x50kg eggs must be very slim. I know from experience that is definitely the case with me

-glas-

 

It's OK, leave it as it is (Golds have to use bombers/cover for groud attack)

i dissagree with parenthesis

 

What about making R4M's actually do some damage though?

Mal

 

R4M rox make the damage of 900..1100 KJ hit directly to the target. But this rox can't make the balance in general. May be we can ask developers to improve the effect. Please find another damage effects below:

Unguided rockets:
R4M ~ 900..1100 KJ
RS-82 ~ 1000..1250 KJ
HVAR ~ 7000..8500 KJ
WGr.21 ~13000..15500 KJ

So I-15 with 8xrs82 rox have the advantage vs FW190F8 with 8xr4m roxx.
P51 with 10xHVAR rox have the 2.8xmultiply power then FW190D9 with 2xWGr.21 rox.
BTW, you need 12000 KJ enery to kill hangar.

23-37mm cannons:
23mm Vya (IL2M) 125..140 (135) KJ
37mm m4 (p39) 240..320 (300) KJ
NS37 (Yak9T) 250..350 (310) KJ
MK108 (Gold 30mm) 320..370 (330) KJ
Flak 18 (110G2, Ju87G) 750..870 (800) KJ

Sure, the Flak 18 cannon is great. But any red plane can drop out the ordinance and fight. Bf110G2 can't make it. Bf110G2 especially with 37mm cannon is only big slow target for Red pilots.

Another guns/cannons:
MG/FF (109E, 110C) 44..62 (55) KJ
MG151/20 (190D/110G)60..80 (68) KJ
M2 0.50 14..22 (18) KJ
MG 17S 4..8 (6) KJ
M2 0.30 3..5 (4.5) KJ
7.6 ShKAS 3..4.5 (3.5) KJ

You can test himself any arms efficiency in TA with enabled ".gunstat" command.

 

I disagree strongly! Its a dangerous weapon. It only need sure hands flying it. IMHO its one of the best fighterbomber in game, although 2x500 is a little weak in comparison with allied planes. And what aboput Me410. Even better than 110!

I don't got the point of your oppinion. Is it important for U to make a good jaboraid, or to survive? Or both? Sure, in 110G-2 its hard to survive against lots of Spitfires but if U're not alone (as U shouldn't be in raid), its very easy.

Yesterday I closed all alone f14 , which was crouded by Spitfires and Hurricanes. I could kill fuel and 4 acks in last run, making 3 passes. Fighters didn't get me. Only as last ack shot my engine off, I killed it in a kamikaze. This is how it happens often to me.

I'd never change a 110 for a F4U or P47!