Dev's, for pete's sake do something about the P-38!!

I can't begin to tell you how sick I am of this nonsense. The Lightning used to be a rather fine plane, before you castrated it that is. If its real life flight model had been anything like the way it's "modelled" in FH1.62, the Allies would have withdrawn any and all P-38's from service within days and demanded their money back from Lockheed! This plane is a friggin joke!

If you're now thinking "Wait a second, isn't this the guy who said the P-38 was still a nice plane even after its FM got revised?" after reading the first paragrah of this post, yes that would be me. Why the flip flop you ask? Because I hadn't actually flown online at the time. I formed my initial opinion of the Lightning based on my performance flying the P-38 against the AI offline, but I guess it was unwise of me to assume that just because it could do well against the AI it would fare equally well against human opponents. I guess the AI never flies its planes to their full potential. Anyway, now that I HAVE flown the P-38F against mostly 109's and 190's, I just cannot believe how you guys can have the nerve to claim that your modelling of the P-38 is anywhere close to the truth! It handles like a total POS. Period. Pretty much anything can out turn it, regardless of altitute, air speed and overall energy state. It's nose pointing authority at slow speeds is utter BS. Is this the plane that had a reputation of being an awesome low speed turner?? Hah! Here on Freehost, a friggin Fw-190 will break no sweat if faced with the task of turning low and slow against a P-38 because he __knows__ that if only he is patient enough he WILL end up in the Lightning's 6. It's simply beyond my scope of understanding how you could have come to the conclusion that this is how a P-38 should handle. There is zip hard data anywhere that suggests that the P-38 should have any trouble out turning a 190 at low speeds. Pulling hard on the stick at 320 mph will result in you flying a rather lax (as far as all-or-nothing dogfights are concerned) 5G turn for a few seconds (you can't pull into a blackout, not even if you use elevator trim), and as your airspeed begins to drop below 300 mph you have to losen up on the stick or you run the risk of departing controlled flight. You can't deploy flaps either because they'll only pop out at speeds below 230 mph or so IIRC. And once you're below 250 mph you're really starting to feel what a miserable piece of scrap metal the Lightning has become. The stall horn keeps bitching at you, forcing you to concede yet more of your precious turn rate. And before you know you're trying to just keep the plane aloft rather than trying to win the fight. In the meantime that gold sucker is gaining angles on you and can even afford to losen his turn and go into a less tight climbing turn, while you have a hard time just to control the plane even with your nose below the horizon! Mind you, the P-38F is supposed to be the best turning variant of all the Lightnings in the game, so the J and L models will only be worse where dogfighting is concerned. I'm sorry to say it, but this is so ridiculous it bars description.

And please, if any of you would like to tell me that I'm just not flying the plane right, feel free to keep your advice to yourself. Trust me, I used to be pretty good with the P-38, not brilliant but at least half decent. After all it was one of only two planes I normally fly. But with the new FH releases, I suck. I mean I suck so bad I'm giving the verb "to suck" a whole new dimension. What we have here is a plane that doesn't climb, doesn't turn, doesn't roll, doesn't accelerate .... just about the only thing it can still do with some success is flying straight and level. As it stands, the P-38 is, for all practical purposes, an unflyable plane. Well done FH developers!

 

I agree with the conclusion, that p-38 combat value is currently none, maybe better just erase it and dont shame the reputation of p38 as a fine fighter.

 

Isnt the P38f a bit outdated on the RPS now? I flew it a few days ago when it had just come out, and got 2 kills in the one sortie I had with it.

Im not doubting what your saying, you've got tons more experience than me in the Lightning obviously

I just think it might be outdated now to an extent that the German Axis planes are much better than it. How many variants of the 109 and 190 have come out since the P38f first showed on the RPS?

A few days can be a long time in FH, as far as planes remaining competitive.

-glas-

 

I agree that the P-38F should be having a hard time against the current set of axis planes. I mean by and large the F model was a so-so fighter when pitted against the likes of the 109's and 190's, but flying it was by no means the death-warrant that you sign when you strap yourself into one on FH. The P-38F should have a good chance of defeating any 190 and 109 if the pilot manages to lure the enemy into a flat turn fight. Try that against a determined pilot on FH and you'll find yourself running for your home plate in no time at all. I mean regardless of WHO you're going up against, the F still shouldn't __feel__ like a B-17 on one engine.

 

Who's Pete anyway?

 

I assume you were being sarcastic?

If not, it's a saying in English, the same as 'for God's sake' or 'for fucks sake'

 

The 109 was a fairly nimble plane Red Ant, only slightly less so than the Spit. Granted the P38 should be a better turner than the 190, but I would have thought the 109 and P38 would have been near equal, or the 109 would beat the P38 in a sustained turn.

Just imo, I havent looked at any data to back it up

 

That's probably true that the 109 and the P-38F should be about on par with each other in regard to sustained turn performance, maybe even with a slight edge to the 109 (although I'd expect the P-38F to be better in REAL low speed turns). But you just try that with FH1.62. The Lightning feels sooo heavy now.

 

template for fh-fix:
irl parameter value under irl test conditions. sources.
fh parameter value under fh test conditions. difference is <>.
+phrase "please fix plane ## by <difference> due to mismatch with irl performance quoted".

template for fh-blabbering:
fh plane suxx because irl pilot <namely> outturned five zekes and outboomed five wurgers the same day, but it's impossible at fh.

 

Yeah whatever, I didn't expect anything else from you. Of course I'm really just a pathetic whiner and there's actually nothing wrong with P-38.

 

I have come to see that this is a Gold game and no matter what anybody say or in deed proves with site after site of info it will fall on deaf ears and you will be called a whinner ...

http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/lockheed_p38.htm

But its all bullshit because we all know that only German info is the truth...

 

redant, you say that.

 

exec... why you tease him; i remember that we had gone through the "irl parameter value under irl test conditions. sources.
fh parameter value under fh test conditions. difference is <>.
+phrase "please fix plane ## by <difference> due to mismatch with irl performance quoted"." phase.. concerning p-38

necessary to say that without effect?

 

Red Ant, try to place yourself in the dev's shoes. I'm reading more and more of these threads, and I'm not going to explain the same thing over and over again. Try scrolling to the last thread in which the Spit or what was it was allegedly a crap plane these days. All we get is ass-chewing, we hardly get any praise. If you'd understand the development process better you'd be more forgiving I bet.

Also, if you feel attacked because someone says you're just another whiner, please just re-read your post. I haven't taken the time to read your post entirely yet myself, mainly due to a lack of time, but also - I'll be honest - because it looks like the thirteenth "plane xxx is crap, do something devs!" thread in a dozen. We understand your situation, and we are continually working on fixing the bugs. However, don't forget this is a hobby, the devs have day-jobs like you just the same. If we'd be continually running and correcting for every value or claiming a player gives it'd be impossible for us to live a normal life.

Also, is it not possible that the planes as iEN designed them were overmodeled? Sure they are tuned down, but are you certain that the plane is now underperforming in relation to it's real-life counterpart?

<Z>

 

zembla:

read this
http://forum.wbfree.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11704&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

 

Haven't flown them now (hmmm, last time I did was on 2.70 dueling with Stec in tournament )...anyway, if it is really so messed up, just give'em 'old' P-38 back, i see no problems with that (although from what i've seen earlier variants on FH turned too well imo)

 

Zembla,

Okay, I was getting a little too excited, I'll give you that, and my tone wasn't quite what it should have been like. I also realize that these people work on Warbirds for free and I'm not paying anything for their effort. OTOH I'm terribly frustrated because reds pleas have obviously been entirely fruitless, and I think alw and company did an outstanding job in providing plenty of material in that thread manoce gave you a link to.

Zem, give me a break! Even if you have a less enthusiastic attitude toward the RL performance of the Lighting than some of us, the P-38 we're currently stuck with is a cruel joke! Virtually all sources I've ever seen or heard of suggest that the P-38 was AT LEAST a good fighter, and most agree that it was actually a VERY good fighter. Not without problems (although most of them got sorted out in the later J and L versions), but certainly an opponent to reckon with. The P-38 in FH1.62 simply does not begin to live up to that reputation.

 

Something I noticed in the thread that manoce linked to.

It would appear that, with a VERY experienced pilot at the controls, the P38 was indeed a great plane to fly. However, most of the things that gave the P38 its advantage IRL arent modelled in WB or would be too difficult to operate. One of the things that was involved in giving the P38 its great turn was reducing the speed in 1 of the engines.

Also, somewhere in that thread was a comparison between the Fw190 and P38, and the gist of it was that the Fw was more maneuvrable than the Lightning. Well, since the Fw flies like a brick (imo) - what would this say about the Lightning?

 

I was just saying you should keep in account iEN might've overmodeled the plane. Maybe you were just spoiled? I remember when my favorite ride (109G2/R6) was tuned down, all of a sudden it was a useless plane. I figured I had just been spoiled in the past, and moved on to better planes.

Sometimes I don't get you guys, you want historical accuracy, but when the developers try to make the planes perform more like the numbers they've performed when being tested you tell us the planes are undermodeled....

<Z>

 

IMHO 109 and 190 overmodelled or spit is undermodeled somewhere. Dont hope to catch a 109 it loses E very slowly. Spit 9 and 109f were by all acounts i read almost identical in speed and climbrate. 109 was faster climber lower alt,s but spit was faster higher. Also it was common practise to draw 109 into a hi speed dive so his controls would compress < above 410 mph approx. > So it could be that 38 is off a little and add 109 E loss < or lack of> and 38 becomes useless against it.
190 was highly armoured but why is it so hard to kill now??? You can expect to scratch thier paint but tough to do any damage to them. I think what we expect from the planes is not far off what they do but little off on both makes world of difference.

Are the dev,s looking at 109 190 FM, DM or not? It makes people believe there is a boias because F4F was pulled so fast < granted it did perform too well> and yet 109 190 have remained in RPS unchanged. Hope you can see this point! To golds, reds get what seems to be UBer plane that is bad , POOF plane is pulled from RPS. To reds ,gold get what seems to be an uber plane and it remains in RPS. This is where the BIAS issue comes from it is unfortunately not the right response, but see where i am going?? I believe flight models on both sides are off . Did you know that 109 compressed above 420 mph and with cockpit design pilot could barely pull out of dive or not. It was a well know fact that 109k could not be flown at full throttle for any length of time due to compression issues and loss of control surfaces.


PS: You want realism??? 109 needed constant rudder input to fly straight, as it had no rudder trim. This led to pilot fatigue and often lead to mistakes in combat. Want to fly 109 with as much as 20% rudder input to make it fly straight??? heheh
Just my 2 cents here < ok cost me $2.00 ;{)