Eisenhower's Farewell Address

So, by your logic, everyone is atheist who claims to be one, even when he prays to God and reads the Bible? How can it be measured any other way, when he says so it must be so.
Really now, how much more stupid do you want this to become?

 

Exactly, that's how I see it. What do you think? Are reading the Bible and praying the criterions for being a Christian? Or let's turn it around: what about someone who prays and reads the Bible but claims to be atheist?

 

I'm trying to figure out how many insurance contracts you must have taken out by now. Since because they say they're honest, they must be.

I do not claim to have the wisdom, right or rightousness to judge who is a "proper Christian" and who's not. But "By their fruit you will recognize them." -Matthew 7:16. Gassing 6+ million people in an industrialised death camp system ,killing of the church that does not preach the party line and leading a country into oblivion seems like a bad move in that context. But since he said so, he must have been Christian. By what else means can you measure it.

 

You should be happy, my friend. Why are you so sad and cynical? You got love - even if you want to think God gave it to you - so love yourself, and enjoy your life.

 

You are so certain that Hitler never read the bible?
Do you know what Hitler was talking about when he said that? He must have known that he was in fact part Jewish. Do you know why Jesus Christ was 'taken out" in the political/religious situation of the time?
Josh David of Nazareth was a rabbi with radical ideas bucking the established rabbinical power base between the people in Judea and the Romans. He tossed-out the temple money changers, remember? He preached universal love, turn the other cheek, become a fisher of men, give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's...
....so those rabbis in power had to get rid of him.
They had plans of "freeing themselves" from the Romans(at least Roman taxes).
His popularity is on the rise. What better way to take him out than to make it look like the Romans were at fault.

So , in light of the concept of Knights of the Crusades, the Knights Templars now replaced by the big Jewish banking cartels....blah blah blah..... in his warped little mind he was going to save Christianity and the world by mass murder.....
Murderously insane, yes. but logical.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell

 

stec's original point was this:

Looseleaf, it is ludicrous at best to suggest that National Socialism as well as Communism were some kind of Christian movements, or their initiators rooted in and motivated by Christian beliefs. Both were atheist systems. Hitlers racial worldview, with the stronger having the right to enslave others for the lone reason that he is the stronger, murdering disabled individuals for being not "fit" to live while endangering the superior Germanic gene pool etc. is based on a cold "logic" that has nothing to do whatsoever with what is written in the Bible. It is in fact contrary to key concepts of it. Hitler acted "in the name of [his] own values", something which should have made him immune to "hatred and cruelty" as per stec's theory. If there was any kind of "religous" background to this movement, it was rooted in ancient Germanic mythology instead of the Christian-Judean Bible. An occasional, incomplete and superficial reference to the Bible by Hitler doesn't make National Socialism a Christian movement, and I wonder how anyone could even suggest that with a straight face.

 

I don't know what they were motivated by. Do you?

A reference to the Bible by Hitler doesn't make National Socialism a Christian movement, and neither do I. Systems are thoughts, ideas. Unless their creator points out clearly whether they are atheist or religious systems, these attributes remain questionable, made by the observer.

If I see someone stealing a car but he denies it, I have at least one kind of perception - vision - to oppose his statement. But if someone speaks about his beliefs, which are non-material entities, ideas, then unless I can detect his thoughts, I have no other information about his thinking than his words.

 

....excluding heartc who knows everything about your thinking and moral values only by discovering what's your religion . No point in arguing with someone who's ability to think independently has been successively destroyed since the day he started to understand single words. Organized religion does horrifying things to the ways you perceive the world around you .

 

We are talking about actions based on values here, not the inner workings of Hitler's brain: "atheists can't *do* that, since we *act* in the name of our own values". The claim that came up then after I said "Hitler" was that Hitler had in fact not been acting in the name of his own values, but Christian values, because he said so. However, if you want to blame a value system for actions, those actions have to correspond to this system otherwise it does not apply, regardless of what is going on in anyone's head or what anybody says.
Do you want to maintain that Hitler's actions corresponded to Christian values, rather than his own? Do you want to maintain that the gas chambers were based on Christian values rather than Hitler's and the Nazis own values? And what's with the atheist supporters of him? Did they too suddenly follow Christian values, or their own, man-made, Nazi ones?

 

Can't they be the same thing?

Can't they be the same thing?

Can't they be the same thing?

Either that, or they didn't have a clue and just wanted to join the party.

 

Do I have to point out christians guilty of homicides comparable with Hitler's? Sorry, this forum doesn't accept posts long enough to contain such list.
Aside of that, as someone already said couple of times, Hitler was a catholic!
Your arguments are totally irrelevant and you got lost in your own demagogy couple of posts ago.
EOT for me.

 

there have been more christian-on-christian and muslim-on-muslim homicides than christian-on-muslim or muslim-on-christian

 

".....Looseleaf, it is ludicrous at best to suggest that National Socialism as well as Communism were some kind of Christian movements, or their initiators rooted in and motivated by Christian beliefs."

No. I am not suggesting that. I was only explaining what Hilter's motivations may have been. He was exposed to or at least had some instruction in the Judeo-Christian belief system.



"..... Hitlers racial worldview, with the stronger having the right to enslave others for the lone reason that he is the stronger, murdering disabled individuals for being not "fit" to live while endangering the superior Germanic gene pool etc. is based on a cold "logic" that has nothing to do whatsoever with what is written in the Bible."

Firstly it is not so radical. i believe Spartans and Vikings did similar things.

Isn't what Israel is doing to the Palestinians sort of the same thing? As they are the chosen people of God (theirs) and God gave that land to Abraham and again to Moses, they have the right to take it back and remove all non Jews.

James Monroe spoke of "manifest destiny" to justify the taking of the American continent and systematic relocation if not eradication of all Indians(indigenous population) and all other non US people, even fellow Christians as the Spanish.....

Now show me where in the writing of Buddha where that is OK?


"....It is in fact contrary to key concepts of it. Hitler acted "in the name of [his] own values", something which should have made him immune to "hatred and cruelty" as per stec's theory. If there was any kind of "religous" background to this movement, it was rooted in ancient Germanic mythology instead of the Christian-Judean Bible. An occasional, incomplete and superficial reference to the Bible by Hitler doesn't make National Socialism a Christian movement, and I wonder how anyone could even suggest that with a straight face."

Wrong. Hilter's motivations were not completely from Germanic mythology "instead" of Christian-Judean biblical roots but IN ADDITION to Germanic mythology, Spartan ideals and a NEW WORLD ORDER....(.. just like the Bush family as Prescott Bush was a great Nazi supporter and convicted collaborator and many other Americans)

Try to find an original "Mein Kamphf" in German... the forward says: "....I would like to thank my good friend , Henry Ford for all of his support."

Not to worry, the same Henry Ford sent $40,000 to Lenin while exiled in Switzerland so Lenin could go back to Russia and continue the workers revolution......

...but I digress....sorry.

 

I have heard the excuse:
"Oh, if X did that, then X wasn't a Christian." It always comesup whenever a Christian is trying to argue that his 'way' is the only good or proper 'way,' for example:
OH? That guy [did X deeds] and claimed to be Christian? Well, he couldn't have been a 'true' Christian then, because Christians don't do that sort of thing.

A bad person who claims to be a Christian is just claiming the same credit a good person who claims to be a Christian is.

I am not a Christian. I reject the myth of Christ. I despise Christianity.
If I toss a dollar coin to a beggar, I do NOT do it because some book has some stories about loaves, fishes and staged magic tricks and other such incredible bullshit. I give a begger a dollar because
1) it makes me feel good
and
2) it makes the beggar feel good [which makes me feel good by proxy]

If I toss a dollar to a beggar, there is a really good chance that some "Christian' is liable to quote me somecrap like "God helps he who helps himself."
If I drive a competitor into the poorhouse by being a ruthless capitalist pig, playing every dirty, foul [but legal] trick to ensure the destruction of a competitor [and the loss of livelihood by that competitor's employees] I could, as easily, claim, "God helps he who helps him self [me]"

Christians and jews and muslims and a few thousand other groups that have mythical views claim credit for all the good but find excuses to excuse themselves or people like them for the bad.

As in OH? That guy [did X deeds] and claimed to be Christian? Well, he couldn't have been a 'true' Christian then, because Christians don't do that sort of thing.

Buck pasing, bible reading shits have cause a LOT of trouble in this world and readily deny it with catch phrases, cliched excuses and buck passing.

 

It is not an excuse. You want to blame "Christianity"? Go ahead, you are probably right more often than not in that people who called themselves Christians did evil, you will hear no rebuttal from me. Yet it is irrelevant to the word of God how people call themselves, and you cannot blame the word for the stupidity, wrongdoings and abuses of men when it itself has already recognized that this will happen and states:

"22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" Matthew 7:22-23

It does not say: "22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'Yep, you did it in my name, so all is fine. Welcome!'" - rudeboy 7:22-23

I do not whitewash the church or qualify or find excuses for any action ever done by any man who did or did not claim to be a Christian, and neither would it be right to do so or any point to it. All of the above on this page was in response to the ridiculous claim by stec which went along the lines that atheists are somehow immune to commit cruelty and hatred, since they act according to their "own" values, so they cannot be mislead. They might not commit them in the name of God, but they will commit them in their own name and their self-made religions (which might well include snipets from different theologies, @looseleaf). Indeed, the responses of a few people in this thread have already shown that acting according to one's own values does not make one unable to hate.

The point is WHY does that make you feel good? Is it your conscience? What is your conscience? How do you explain conscience in the atheist world, which exists only of "real things"?

 

Please guys stop provoking him! Or he will never stop flooding this topic with this pity diarrhoea of worn out slogans and quotes from his favourite fantasy novel! The only way to make him listen and try to understand your arguments would be electric shock therapy but even this with a little chance of success - brainwashing machine already did unrecoverable damage to his ability to think on his own and understand what other people have to say. He's in his fairy tale world completely already.

 

Let's just get back to these - still unanswered - questions:

- What makes someone a Christian?

- Who is competent to determine whether someone's a Christian or not?

~~~

My opinion:

- Teaching children about a vague and mysterious fictional character like God can cause distress, discomfort and anxiety, which may remain unrelieved.

- I think it was exactly the reason why ruling class created single god religions (just like later on they created and/or used Nazism, Communism and the likes); to solidify their power, and to make controlling people easier. It works like a virus (or iPod).

 

Ha ha....Single God theory.....


even Aristotle was guilty of that.....


Geeze.... I posted Eisenhower's farewell address because Deadmeat asked to see it and now Christians hijacked the thread !