How see the current FH veteran WB pilot... something to muse.

Several days ago proceeded on internal forum of the 312. (Czechoslovak) Sq. RAF interesting discussion. I presume give here opinion of one of our veteran pilot - F/O Swords, who have been flying with 312th on FH from the end of the 2000 year. I think he touched several themes with what most of pilots are not familiar longer time here. We are interesting of reactions, can also later add other views form our forum. So here it is..:

Lets take this as a begin of discussion from what should come points what we would like change for better gameplay.

<S>
rbull-
S/Ldr of the 312th

 

I flew against swords a day ago (i've joined ki43 chasing him after attack on field) and i've noticed, that he flew the Spit rather in a bad style... although ki43 pilot flew even worse... i've scored an easy kill in ki61. Is he competent enough to make such observations? I153 problem is a different one... I153 was the last biplane fighter developed ever, therefore it was considered the best biplane fighter ever (entered service a year after I16)... it was rather fast for it's biplane construction, and there's no need to whine (the developers could easily have inserted 2x20 mm armatment version of this plane which would end in endless whines of golds). I like slow and manouvrable constructions so i often fly a Zero when playing gold ToDs. I never had a problem in outmanouvring I153s in Zero (when playing in normal conditions-without i's lags)... mb it's because i take 18-20% fuel only when taking a Zero. Another problem is Ju88 you said... better ask --zo-- if he had such problems shooting me down in one of them a week ago- i remember it clearly, cause it ruined my bomber streak of 11- 11x20mm from a Spitfire and i was going down. The real problem i think of are:
1. I16 and its performance above 3000m, which is far to good
2. Yak 3 (do i need to clear or does everybody know?)
3. lack of balance in attack planes on both sides (an equivalent for il2 and hvy p47,p51,F6F5 and F4U's on gold side is needed)
4. Tempest was screwed up... far too less manouvrable on FH than in reality.

 

The flight model isn't perfect, I agree.... But it's FAR better then most other sims I've played.

And anyway, I like the game.

 

frog u forgot Pe-2 (mig29+i153 crossed)

"3. lack of balance in attack planes on both sides (an equivalent for il2 and hvy p47,p51,F6F5 and F4U's on gold side is needed)"

right, stupid is 190F carried really crap 40mm R4M rockets really can carry 32 of them , but its decreased to 8 here, and if its "for gameplay" then why me262 carry 32? those were same rockets packs.
Funny is one rs-82 rocket is better than 4 R4M rockets.. and 190G is very hard to handling , cmon i need 2 hits to kill stupid radar for a while (with 55mm R4M), and i dont admint shooting to hangars LoL and hit is most difficult from any other rocket here (except V-1), admins i admit to put full 32x ordnance in 109G. Theres only few pilots at MA can really use that weapon. And this weapon 32x is not more powerful as standard 6-8x HVAR or even 10xHVAR p51d THE BEST HVY FIGHTER AT MA.

P38 - wasted... its no fun or sense to take.

 

what about li2s? arent they more though lately? in last two weeks i havent score akill on these with fewer then 30x20mm hits...
while ju52 goin down after 5x20;

got one question: li2s supermanuever flying tanks? wtf?

 

Pietas -don't forget, that in early war reds have no jabos, while golds can carry nice bombloads in 109s. Spit 1, Hurr 1 just can't carry bombs! Also in early war Ju88 is much better that any red bomber.
But - true, I153 is a bit to good plane... if it was as good in real as it is here why germans was scoring so many kills in beginning of war?
Long time ago,there war polish movie "Czterej pancerni i pies" about T-34 tank crwe - they were killing houndreds of germans, houndreds of Tiger tanks and of course they won the battle of berlin. Polsih satirician (or satiric ) told after that "If we have only 2 tanks like that, we would won that war alone" (without allieds) - same situation is here

 

well lets see

1.) DMG models - screwed on almost EVERY plane (especially japs & american & german fighters, i153, spitfires and hurricanes too; and most of all IL2 - only front fuselage was panzered in RL )

2.) flight models - I think they are roughly OK - they are limited by general FM of WB.. which cannot be changed much i guess because of IEN code - like roll inertia,, counting FM from IAS, overall speed (or slowness ) of the game and so on

with exception of
F4U - screwed maneuvarabilty, climb rate, stability
FW 190 - high speed handling, spin characteristic
P38 - stall speed
KI84 - overall maneuvarabilty, rudder effectivnes, speed, stability
A6M - climb rate
F6F, P40E - high speed handling (elevator)
tempest, typhoon - speed
bf 110 - inital turn rate

well modeled planes are imho yakovlev fighters, kobras, pony, jug, spits, 109s, ki61s, ki43s, mc202

3.) gun effectivness -
oerlicons screwed - ballistics is ok but effectivness is bad
7mm (especially british dixon flame bullets) screwed

D2 effectivness barrier is ridiculous for cannon explosive ammunition - especially for mg151 ammo which didnt relly on penetration

4.)OTTO - it works contra it should.. under D2 it is deadly no matter the situation.. over.. no matter of situation.. it is harmless
so you can make 45° front attack with speed margin of 500 mph and you got pked by few 7mm bullets from rear gunner..
and vice versa you can safely do low speed dead 6 attack if you keep over D2
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now I will go through your post (these are my opinions, could be wrong of course!)

JU88 - I think this was said by Bader - JU88 was far the best plane they had.. realy tough bird, you had to be lucky to hit the vital spot to kill it
Personally I don't have any problems with toughness of this bird... otto is far much bigger problem

I153 - only dmg model screwed; zekes were fine planes of course.. but not because of their maneuvarabilty but because of speed, acceleartion and climb rate. I153 is harmless if you keep out turning with it. Same situation as 2 spit IX would be attacking A6M2.. and zeke would be able to dodge for long time. No, I153 is ok.

ad 1.) well I16 suck over 3000meters.. it is much slower, however it is still maneuvarable (but it is no wonder in turn rate.. takes it over 22 sec to do 360° ! (cannon one), however turn rate is not important.. roll and snap turn are deceisive); and it could still climb well at very low speed (however this ability is severed compared to situation under 3000m)
who cares that slow plane is even slower over 3km?
In what way you think that the performance of I16 should be decreased over 3km? It climbs not so well and it is slower.. what else?

ad 2.) Yak3 - pls explain.. dunno what is wrong about this bird

((OKW imperative from '44: "do not enter fight with yakovlev fighters without undernose radiator under 4km alt"
Helmut Lipfert (ace with 203 abschusses on eastern front): "I have to admit that this new yakovlev impressed me a lot. It was more maneuvarable, faster, better acceleration and better climber. The arnament was about the same (note that 30mm was *not* standart arnament of 109s in 1st half of 1944). Only thing our 109 was better was dive." He describes his first fight with yak3 when he damaged it and yak 3 with smoking engine easily disengaged by lvl flight.))

ad 3.) well.. there is question whether we want max realism or balanced field capture abilities .
I think that 190's are not so bad jabo ride... they should get those rocket that belong to them, and HS 129 would be nice too. I got no other idea how to solve this problem.. but imho this is NOT problem at all . Having 10 rockets and destroying 10 targets is pretty unrealistic. I guess rockets should be fired by TWO by one trigger press and their dispersion should be increased... as well as FLAK effectinvess should be increased - so this low speed low alt jabo attacks would be very risky.
mb then jabos would be less accurate and dive and lvl bombers would be needed more
however.. you want to add jabo plane for golds? which for christ sake?? See.. allies just had better jabo planes in war (but heyl 190 was not so bad!); axis has to use different tactics... or WBFH should cease to its goal to create realistic sim?

oh yes ; letecz (czech former ien pilot) has been doing some tests how plane are behaving compared to the RL tests.. WB 2.77 seems to be much more accurate than AH, WW2OL and IL2;

however Target Rabaul is somewhere else

well, what is so wrong about Pe-2 except of OTTO? it was rocking plane in RL.. faster than those days 109s, good climbing, dive capabilities... was used as fighter!

so what is wrong with it?

sure.. you are right... well except of your statement that p 51d is the best hvy fighter at MA.. not it isnt.. it is too much vulnerable; imho the best one is F4U1D/F4U4

you are right.. stall speed is screwed.. should be about 10-15 mph lower

personally i have not experienced any difference between these two
i think you had just bad luck + spreyers fever... hold your fire , go closer, aim at the very one spot.. and just few shells will be enough

 

what about taking some rockets with ya in i16 or i153? Or 2x100lbs in F4F? yeap, red side definitly lacks more jabos But sure... programm some more... i already like gold multiplier (dependant on avaible number of planes each side).

Ju88 is much better than DB3F.... but i would say He177 sucks when compared to B17 or B24 (not menntioning that i've heard Lancaster will be introduced in next FHLauncher ver.) so there is no need for red bomber reinforcement right now imho- there is a time extended balance in game already.

 

Manoce:
Good post

But I disagree with you on I16 (and I153, Ki27 for that matter)
They are far more formidable at higher altitudes.
IAS is most important for the WB speed limitations, and average IAS is lower at higher altitudes. It push speed limitations for these planes to the higher TAS, and at altitude 6km+ even I153/Ki27 are already capable of limited diving without breaking up or lower control response. And they can climb with the best, especially Ki27

Of course it is still easy to disengage, but if you mess with them in any kind of manouver dogfight at higher altitude, you may find yourself in trouble far soon than at lower alts. Also these planes have HUGE advantage with the low stall speed. You can do efficient reversals and smooth vertical maneouvers at higher alts where more powerful planes will have troubles with their higher stall speed.

I16 over 5-6km is very dangerous against early gold planeset. Only option Golds have is to disengage or try to outmaneouver (zero). Or the typical arena tactic, HO.


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Btw. I agree with Target Rabaul as the way to go. Open Beta is great, and FM rocks.
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@frog

I153 is totally superior to A6M in maneouver combat. Not even nearly empty fuel tanks will get you close to I153 agility.
Of course you can suprise it, or catch it in maneouver at higher than it's corner speed.

But against competent pilot, 1 on 1, you should have same chance as snowball in hell, if you try to maneouver with it. Same like Spitfire IX mixing it with N1K1/2

 

ad I-16 -- I see -- the IAS computing WB.. one of the IEN drawbacks -- so no chance to solve this problem

but maneuvarable advantage at higher alts is realistic, right?

 

well stuka's were used with great effectivness in europe (but imho their durability is screwed badly here which makes them shitty)
but 110 aint a bad jabo after all...

btw, i never shoot to buffs with more than d4 (d2 mostly!! and with a great speed - 500-800kph!) so its not a spray fever in this case; and remember: i fly both sides and have latest experiences with both situations (shootin ju52 nad li2);
is it a coinsidence?

 

are u mad?????? more???? no pls!!!


can anyone give me the speed in RL of Pe-2?? i ve seen in wb a pe2 at 2 km alt running more of 600 km h without to dive

 

@big-jo -- our flak is walk through the rose alley compared to the RL one

this is the main problem.. do we want realism? And who is we?

 

Never had a problem killing Li2's, come in stern quarter, aim at the nose and walk your shells down, nose, wingroot, rear fuselage, tail.

Works a treat.


Mal

 

@manoce

much dificult yet?? fuck , what hard the life is but sometimes diving from high alt and high spped (more of 750 km h) acks killed me, what will happen if flaks accurate is incresed? shot down me before i can take off?

and much yet, attack to the fleet of ships....my mother..........now it s a suicidie, but that would be a nightmare imo...

 

Attacking a fleet of ships should be a nightmare. There should be a greater chance of getting killed than surviving in dive attack on fleet.

But as for realism question.....IMO, either acks should not shoot if friendly planes overhead, or impact from acks should kill any plane including friendly. Would put a very quick end to ackrunners. Taking off from cv would require acks to stop firing until out of range. Would certainly change the way cvs are attacked, if acks were more deadly, but could not shoot if friendly AC is in range. Imagine 1 or 2 high level buffs attacking fleet, cons take off to kill buffs, so acks have to stop shooting making way for jabos to come in and cause maximum damage. If cons don't take off fleet is still open to high level buff attack.

How many ppl whine that they want realism, but would bitch to the end of the world if friendly fire was turned on?

regards, Oz

 

I was killed by friendly ack at least three times, when pursuing enemy.

 

Hi,

Yes, you can be killed by friendly ack. I died in this way many times and so did my opponents.

On the ack and otto accuracy problem - why, on earth, in Aces High there are no automatic gunners and still attacking even single buffs is a good challenge?

Hint - in WB we need way too much to shoot something down. If we had a human gunner in a bomber, he could fire and hit the attacking fighter all his way down on our buff and still the attacker would survive because he has multiple 20mm cannons and we just a single 7mm machinegun.

This is not a case in AH and this was not a case in RL.

Salute!
Daedal

 

Ad friendly flak shooting - friendly ack can get you only by accident - bullets meant to your enemy

but in RL, flak was shooting everything that was moving... may be not small calibres -- because they were able to identify plane - but 40mm and 88mm were just shooting at everything that was moving! I remember LW pilots memoirs that they were never entering area where flak was shooting (and according to them, flak was shooting no matter there were some planes in the range ) because flak was shooting at everything until the crew identifies plane.. and that happened only when they get slow and low.
Imagine situation of furbal over field.. 2 possiblites flak would be shooting at every plane, because its crew would be in stress and would have no time to do proper identifying.. or it would be silent.. not to harm its planes.. By no chance shooting at enemy and not shooting at friendly.

Pilots often describes situation when flak recognizes friendly plane pursuing enemy, they stopped shooting.

88mm range & effectivness were more effective for sure

 

@manoce

I agree with you on almost everything, but...

As for Yak3 IMHO the problem is speed in a dive... it is too good, last ToD yak3 could outdive my 109G14 easily, and almost always ran from me in such a manner. Other performance values are fine.

Could you plz elaborate on FW190 issues? (note: spin)

As for JABOs, I suggested to admins a long time ago to allow 4xWGr to Me410, and gave them 3 separate references to back it up. They turned it down supposedly because i didnt gave them enough evidence of "mass" use of it. (I had photos from serial planes, not prototypes, and gave them 2 books in which WGr and 410 are said to have been used as massively as they were used at all)

Another issue is of course the effectivness of German rox in air to ground use. WGr are too good in FH, but i guess that is for gameplay, and actually they do not bring much advantage to golds.

The most irritating issue for me now in FH is some damage model errors which came to my attention after FH ver. 1.42
(I have stated some of this in another thread about fuel fires)

The MOST obvious is the toughness of Me410 from behind, and coupled with OTTO it is now a very hard plane to kill, which wasnt so in RL.
Also P40 toughness sucks big time in FH. Rear surfaces on this plane come of after 2x20mm lucky shot in HO passes. That is absurd!
If there is a lucky shot I should be PKd or my engine should be dead, not my vertical or horizontal tail!

My general feeling is that before FH 1.42 planes were killed in lots of different ways, now im starting to learn each planes typical death.
I'm sure youll agree it is stupid!

IMHO i153 zero i16 are very accurate at low alt.

About IAS... Why is it so bad for FM if it was computed by IAS? Could you explain pls couse i dont know?

As foe ACKS, if possible they should be made more accurate from 0 to about 45 deg in elevation, then from 45 to about 80 accuracy should fall, and then again be better around 90 deg because it is very easy to kill a plane in a near vertical dive such as Ju87 os SBD since it hardly moves in the eyes of a gunner. This is when the target is attacking ACK itself or smtng very close to it...

As for OTTOs and HMACKs, IMHO all the problems would dissappear if their tracers could be made constantly or (for HMACK) att all visible (in the eyes of the target plane)!
If possible HMACK tracers should be made visible also because of their psychological effect on pilots!

IMHO LI2 durability is thesame as JU52. But for me JU52 is a bit harder to kill because it has better cones of fire and of course bigger gun
On several occasions I killed LI2 in my Bf109F only with 7mm. I aimed only at one spot from D2 and the guy was stupid enough not to jink or move around, so with only 7mm i blew his wing off (note: i cant remember but i didnt even use more than 40% of 7mm ammo)

Its a lot tougher for spits because of convergence, and IMHO some kind of incediary ammo dmg equivalent should be introduced.