New Spit vs. 109 for Golds ;-)

For you Golds who have not flown a Spit recently, why don't I try to show you what it's like.

Imagine you are in the cockpit of Spit. Very comfortable isn't it. Well don't get too comfortable, you won't be in it for long.

Now imagine you are on the tail of a 109 at D4. This is a stretch for many of you, because you know how hard it is for a spit to get on a 109s tail now days. But imagine it anyway. Do you see the 109 flying straight just ahead?

Resist the temptation to squeeze the trigger. You are way out of range. You may take him down at D3 with your two 20mm but only if he keeps straight and level, and you are lucky.

You have some E after coming down from above, which is unusual because 109s typically have the better altitude. You slowly close the range to D3.

To be sure of a kill you need to be closer. Or as soon as the first couple of 20mm hit, the 109 pilot will jump and start twisting all over the sky; and then getting any additional hits on a twisting 109 with your slow firing cannon at D3 is unlikely. And to bring the 109 down you need more than a few hits.

You need to get into MG range. Problem is, Spit only has 7mm! So MG range is < D2 ! You almost get to D2 when the dopey 109 pilot finally spots you.

He goes into a dive, you follow. Do you see the speed gauge move towards 380MPH, as the 109 pulls away into D4? Well now shake your head from side to side as fast as you can while still trying to watch the 109 and your speed indicator, and your left wing that looks as if it's about to fall off.

Thankfully the 109 levels out and your speed drops down some. You can stop shaking your head now. Then the 109 pilot pulls into a turn. You start to close on him and get to D3, but now I want you to close your eyes tight except for a tiny blurred spot in the middle. You can barely make the 109 out and can't see any of your instruments. The 109 also pulls up some. Now just close your eyes shut and try to guess where the 109 went.

Keep them shut...keep them shut...You can spend this time praying that you are not close to the ground... Ok...you can start to peek a little... Ok open them. What do you see? Blue sky. Look around, there he is off to the right and climbing, you follow. You were lucky again and stay on his tail. But the 109 will out climb you.

This 109 pilot is dopey though...remember. So he goes into another sudden dive forward. Close your eyes tight shut again, but this time take your desk lamp and shine it right in your face. This is uncomfortable, so pull back on the stick and open your eyes again. Remove the lamp.

You see the 109 pilot below and manage to somehow close the gap to D2 where you don't waste any time in giving him a long burst of all guns. Your hit indicator shows you hit him with 27 7mm and 4 20mm but nothing seems to have fallen off.

He is turning again. Close your eyes. Keep them shut... You may be able to out turn the 109 but only with your eyes closed. So you push forward on the stick and peek a little so you can see if you are still on his tail.

Wouldn't you know it, there he is right in front of you! This spit really can turn. Line those cross hairs up. BANG... BANG...BANG Flames appear in front of your cockpit. You just got hit from behind and above by a 190. Your spit is a burning wreck EJECT...EJECT...EJECT

I guess you didn't see that 190 because you spent so much time with yours eyes closed.

And this Spit is the best plane we've got...

Cross
Conduct yourself with honour, and there is victory even in defeat.

 

After all the data myself and those who agree with me have presented, our argument to get the Spitfire modeled more realistically has largely succeeded. Gone is the instant response and high roll rate for the ailerons. For the most part, its fuel consumption has been increased. However, the Spitfire still has the strengths it actually had in WW2. It has good energy retention due to the design of its wing. There are two major ways to reduce the drag a wing produces: increase its aspect ratio or find another way to stifle wingtip vortices' effect on the wing's drag. In the case of the Spitfire, they chose the latter option and made an eliptical and thin wing that reduces wingtip vortex drag by its elliptical design and overall drag with its thin airfoil. In real life 109 outclimbed Spitfire and Spitfire out turned 109, but the difference was not large, that is why these two planes are a common example of WW2 plane rivalries.

 

Did spit and 109 had so dramatically different divespeeds like here in 1.61? wanna know.

 

Apparently so Jacobe. Im reading a book right now called 'Fighter Boys' about the RAF just before the fall of France and the BoB, and it's something that is commented upon regularly by Spit pilots.

The 109 had the beating of the Spit in climb and dive, but the Spit ate the 109 for lunch in turns. Twas the way of things it would seem.

-glas-

 

welcome to the real world, neo..

 

That's what I like in spit ,you can't never run ..but FIGHT!! I miss good dogfight ,but golds tend to fly 190's and fast 109's which won't join good 'ol turn & burn.Ki43 and 61 used to be nice plane to DF with but seems now that ki61 does everything better than spit5.And I'm not whining just noticing & stating the fact.Ladder would be nice.Mano il mano going...

..and oh yeah ..nikis also

<S>

 

I reckon screw the gold and red, allies and axies crap. Let anyone fly whatever plane they want, well as long as it's around the right time.... these days who can tell what's the right time anyways?

If golds and reds could fly either sides plane it'd probably help fixing the sides being unbalanced all the time. I know, I know it's not going to happen but oh well.

 

It's not gold or red crap harp,it's just there are 2 sides and both fly different planes.I mean that best thing would be that both sides planes had a 'matching opponent' on other side. Like spit & 109.I16 (or Fm2 F4F) & A6M.P51 (or Typhoon ,Tempest) & 190 etc....
Understand?? (btw when you think of these 'opponents' performance now what u think)

 

The KI61 does not come out until March 1943 at which time the Spitfire9 is out. The Spitfire9 is the hardest plane to bring down when I fly the KI61. I think you are underestimating the Spitfire's turning ability. Vought and myself did some testing and when I was in a Spitfire1 and he was in an A6M2 both of us with 50% fuel and no flaps at 1.5km, I could turn inside his A6M. The point where I could turn inside enough to get a shot was long in coming, but the Spitfire1 is definitely capable of doing so. The A6M and KI-43 used to be my favorite planes for the fact that they could out-turn any red plane, and if I encountered an I-16, A6M3 onwards and the KI-43 could out-energy-fight that plane. Now, despite turn charts that say otherwise, the KI-43 and A6M can not turn inside a Spitfire. It seems that the KI-27 got the A6M and KI-43's handling, and they replaced the A6M and KI-43's handling with sluggish and unresponsive handling. On the same token, look at the Spitfire's handling. The aileron performance of the Spitfire is realistic now, but you are still blessed with an extraordinary elevator! This sensitive, some will even say "over-sensitive," control surface responds instantaneously to stick movement, and with a rapid rate-of-pitch right from the start. Use your enemy's strengths to your advantage. With their high speeds, the 190 and 109 are easier to dodge. 190 pilots are familiar with the concept that if their target moves only a couple hundred feet in any direction away from straight and level, their shot becomes increasingly impossible with increasing speed. Use the Spitfire's energy retention as well. Don't pull back with full force on the stick, fly gently with only a faint stall horn at most. You actually end up turning faster if you use light and gentle stick force than if you try to pull your plane through the tightest turn possible. Last of all, do not follow runners. Using common sense and a little bit of physics, you can end up higher than your enemy if you just climb when they run. They are faster longer, so yes, they have a lot of speed, but also a lot of drag. If you climb, you are at a slower speed, with less drag, turning your kinetic energy into potential energy. Additionally, when that runner turns around, he loses the same percentage of energy he would at any speed, but at a high speed, the percentage taxes a good couple hundred km/h. While you are climbing, you can turn and lose a percentage of your energy, but only a couple dozen km/h, and with your altitude, you have "put money in the bank" and sluggish turns will not penalize your potential energy (at least not much). What it all comes down to is that a con can run and top out at at X-amount of energy, while you can actually put your X-amount of energy from the initial stages of the running into Potential Energy, and then gain even more energy by climbing some more. So when a con runs, he has X-amount of energy and that amount will never go up so long as he is running, but you can actually gain an energy advantage over him by climbing, which is just another form of energy- planes have a finite amount of kinetic energy, but an infinite amount of potential energy up to its ceiling.

 

So true...


Cross, have you ever tried to fly a 109 then? I don't really think so, your post kind of got that feel to it. If you don't fire at d4 then that's your problem, it might not be common practice, but if you just do that enough (practice) you'll get them...

So, what do you think the 109's have? The 109's got 1 good (or 2 crappy) 20mm('s), and two peashooter 7mm's. The Spit got 2 brilliant 20mm's (the most powerful in the game last time I checked, and I doubt they've changed it much since), and 4 7mm's... hmmmm, let's not start to complain about firepower.

So the 109 gets away from you in the dive a bit, good, you have come to feel the effects of a different wing design. Now you pull out of the dive, great, now the 109 feels the very same effect. Have you tried pulling up in a 109 at 380mph IAS?????? So you're complaining about the E retention of your Spit as well? Strange, as the Spit retains E about as easily as it can...

Really, you should fly the 109 from time to time, you're a typical victim of the "neighbor's grass is always greener" phenomenom. If you so much envy the gold planes for their capacities go fly them, if it's the other way around, go fly red, if you keep that up you'll end up frustrated. Reason being that there is no ьber plane, in the end it always comes down to the pilot.

Also, if you feel your precious Spit has been tampered with, really, forget it, it's impossible without updating the FHLauncher.

So thanks for your trip of sarcasm, but it's bs...

<Z>

 

@spuint ,very wise words ,a speech of an ace.Bible of combat strategy in nutshell <S>

I've flown lot of 109 some of ki's (which are great T&B 's imo) But what I noticed when started to fly 109 is that I can't hit shit with it's nosemounted 20mm ...it need lot of practice.The wing mounted hispanos of spit forgives some aiming errors cause bullets are flying 'all directions' But imo 109's hold E better than spits ,at least in vertical manouvers.

Too bad I can't play anymore cause I ping FH and all is stable and good ,but when I enter arena I get yellow beacon in 10 secs and after 10 secs of that I get red beacon and then i get kicked out X 100

 

Mmmm... I don't agree actually. I always found the Spit way better at zooming. Meaning it's better at keeping it's E in the vert. In general the Spit vs 109 problem can be seen a little this way: the Spit is better at keeping E, the 109 is better at building it's E up...

Tried connecting through a proxy yet? No I don't mean connecting to a different IP, I mean, a proxy. In the past, during another ping-crisis, some people came up with a fix, launching proxies, it was pretty succesful. I can imagine some people are still using it.

<Z>

 

im not sure if ur serious with ur words or if it is sarcasm..
i dont deserve any of them anyway;
i just see these updates as more fitted to real performace of that aircraft; i know its shock for ppl who played wb for such a long time and spit is not anymore perfect-plane-to-start-fighting;
it needs now little more attention and practice; cant match 109s in dive, but still easily can outturn them;
its firepower is way better, especially when ur not familiar with 1x20 nose 109s gun (after long time spent on gold side i still prefer double hispano configuration)
its durability is still very big if u remember to avoid hi-g turns with damage;
lf version can outclimb any other aircraft, i wonder how many of red-only pilots will be able to use this to run from the unwanted duel...

imho spit keeps E easier in any manouver..
109s climb rate (109f4 vs spit5; 109g2 vs spit9c) is just better and its quite easy to rebuild better E state;

i know there are more ppl that cant play after ip change..
i hope situation will get better for u guys;

 

Yes LF is awesome turner and has good E retention. However 303,s lack any punch and 20 mm seems nuetered now. Last night i was online and in combat i was hitting 15 x 20 mm in 109 and 190,s with little or no effect. I got oil on 1 190 and fuel fire on a 109, 2 109 flew away semmingly unscathed.
I had converge at 200 and fired some rounds from D4 but most were D2 or less. Some from low 6 but many were deflection as 109 turned or pulled up, i could actually see rounds hitting cokpit and fuselage in 1 fight. i did kill 1 109 as he climb turned but it was 62 x 303 and 16 20 mm.

Has 20 mm hispano been changed in 1.6.1 or gold armour made better??
I also pumped a ju with 33 x 303 and 12 x 20 mm he hit me 15 x 12.7 took my wing. He did die but after i did so i got vater maybe??

Any ideas anyone ??? This is no flame just observation. Use to be able to kill most planes with 10 or less 20 mm.

 

Aike is tweaking gunnery now.

 

I hope he tweaks 7mm a bit, it doesn't do much damage now It's impossible to shoot a wing off of a 109 even with 600x7m...
And about spit's elevator. I read somewhere it had A LOT of elev control in normal flight. Too much in fact It would stall and flip if u pulled more than half the way ...

 

Zembla,

You are right I rarely fly the 109. But then my post makes it clear I fly for "Elite", a Red only Squadron. Thanks for the advice. I do sometimes fire at D4, usually at bombers or straight and levels. A small dodging 109 only if I have ammo to waste, and then only 20mm will be effective. If it hits. 50cal was good for small dodging craft. Rapid fire, with some punch at moderate ranges.

I'm sorry if my post gave the impression that I was jealous of the 109. That wasn't my intention. I am all for historical accuracy on WB, and appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of both these truely great planes. If you re-read my "sarcastic" post I think you will find that my main concern is the changes to red out and black out. This change has been been severe. What is the point of having a plane that can out turn a 109 if you can only do it with your eyes shut?

I'm glad it rankled you

 

and reds don't tend to flight p51 or f4u

 

Were you talking about me (Squirl) or Spuint? The names look similar and I have seen squint and spuint on FH.

 

His ego claims for reconnaisance....