Who gave the pills to Mr. Otto ?

IRL the gunners on bombers was more to scare fighters than kill them, but on a game where no fear of death is known this isnt true, but at the most even in level flight, good strands shouldnt hit you untill about d3...and if your going really fast, i dont see a good gunresolution being made on you.

 

humm buff cant kill fighter look at mephes belles record...(first army b17 to make it into retirment and not die defore 25 sorties requiied of buff and crew.

8 swasticas for 8 killed fighters and shit loads of bombs tho im not sure sugifcance of the ones red stared and gold stared

(8 gold stars...8 cons killed...mahpe gold stars are sotries consider above and beyond call of duttie{killed con and gound trg} and maby red stars are for misses or rtbed uncompleted mission???) seems logical.




Lets count shall we... 1! for bomberder. wtg yank 1 con and all those dead trgets





tail gunner scored 2 wtfg yank




unfortunatly i dont have turets or wasit gunners from out side. but that leaves 5 total between the waist gunners and and two turret guns

 

hmm, you have no proof to what distance those cons were killed at, how large of a group they flew in, or what they were shooting at, and even more, are they honest? a few painted swastikas is far from proof about anything other than their word to me...which still doesnt explain what when or to which distance.

 

true and the memphies bell had the devils own luck if u beleave some the the stories about her. im not saying this was a standerd. only that it did happen as well as many buff crews never came home from there virgine flights.

i also saw a show were a ju88 junkers captian said they secretly hide the ammo guns off ship becase they felt there 7mm machince guns were usless waight and altituded was safer. He made it threw war into retiment also . So really u dont know. u might find a ju88 with a doven kills to chalenge his aopion. but he trusted his buff more then the guns and she always brought him home. if someone else snuck extra ammo and is sure that got him home its all opion. so even those who "know" cant be tooking as fact but educatied opions for most things. So im trying to state that u have an opion so do other people. even people expearinsing the same thing will have difrent conclusions and opions.

Look a p38, there were pilots who didn't want to leave the best plane in war war 2 and those who couldnt wait to traspher away from the suicied diver. opions based off fact and experiance yet so vastly difrent.

 

I doubt there are many DC-3, Li-2, TBF, Me410 or Ju87 with dozends of OTTO killmarkings painted.

The problem we have is, that the OTTOs are supersnipers who kill enemy fighters without great problems.


These painting on the B17 are nice - but its not representative for all bombers.

The B17 was called Flying Fortress because it was so excellent equipped with OTTO stations. But without fighter escorts even large formations of B17 were butchered by the Luftwaffe.

In August 1943 183 B17 attacked the german city of Schweinfurt. They were attacked by 300 german fighters. More than 60 of the B17 were shot down.
Even the excellent equipped OTTOs of the B17 coulndt prevent this massacre.

In September 1943 45 B17 were shot down by german fighters while they bombed Stuttgart.

The losses of the buffs were dramaticly reduced when they had effective fighter escorts.

Like the Thunderbolts who escorted the B17 during the attack on Emden on Sept. 43.
German fighters were only able to shoot down one single B17 because of the excellent work of the escort fighters.

In FH with the actual settings even planes like Ju87 become dangerous in dogfights because of their ottos. They are started to defend fields.
Li2-transport planes are used as ackstars because of the sniper effect of the 360 turret OTTO.

And so we are in danger that the WW2 simulation of FH becomes extremely unrealistic - like an arcade game for 10 year old boys.

Its only a game - yes. And we never will get 100% realism or even 50%.
But I think it should be a game, where the pilots - the players at the computers - kill the enemy planes by their own and not by abusing their ottos.

 

Couldn't agree more, except for the fact that the aim of the game is to capture enemy territory. If buffs and transports have no ottos to defend them, then ppl will not fly them (I know I don't want to be the one to give someone a streak of 50 by praying on defenceless planes), and the arena becomes one big furball.

And before you say "well man the guns yourself", tell me how you fly at low altitude avoiding hills while you sit in top gunners seat. Or how do you drop those bombs to close the field, while you man the tail gun? And why do I, flying in the buff, have to fly straight and level while I man a gun and you dart about all over the place strafing the hell out of me?

My point is....If you take away ottos effectiveness, then you may as well remove the buff list. Otto has to be a deterrent, or ppl will not fly them, pure and simple. Sure...IRL otto may not have been that great, but they had to be somewhat effective or they would have put the men to better use in fighters. Why would you send 8 men up in one plane to get shot down, when they would be better off in 5 or 6 planes?

The difference between real life and this game is that IRL they could send 60 bombers up in formation to do a raid, and they could send 1/2 a dozen squadrons of fighters to protect them. When was the last time you saw that many ppl online at the same time all up, let alone for one side. In the game, sometimes there is no alternative but to send up a lone buff to do the job. Sometimes when I fly there are only a handful of ppl in the arena. Does this mean I shouldn't still try to take fields?

There is no easy solution to this 'problem'. Those who fly mainly fighters will always say otto is to uber, and those who fly mostly buffs will say the opposite. As I said in a previous post, I believe current settings are a good balance. And yes I have played on both sides of the fence, for both sides of the war.

regards, Oz

 

Its known that I prefer flying bombers.

And its still my opinion that the actual otto settings are ridiculous.

I dont know, if its technically possible, but why not raising the passive defense of bombers?

Why not raising the armor and hitpoints of bombers, so they could take much more damage before they die.
Switch off the engine explosions of bombers.
So they can still fly after getting heavy damage (and there are much more pictures from WW2 of buffs with ebormeous damage which returned home to base than of those with funny kill marks of their ottos).

In actual FH the buffs could still be shot down with few hits - even the 4 engined monsters - and this is compensated with superottos.

So I would suggest to decrease their offensive potention (ottos) and raise at the same time their defensive potential (armor, hitpoints, fueltanks).

 

switch the buffґs off pls in the game, me think itґs better, than can even more better playing the 75% of playerґs play arcade btw. F31 and F18 as example,

babek, why do you meen switch rdr height off to 4700 km? while the buffґs had no any chance in this game, when you now switch the ottoґs even more now to low, never ever a buff has chance to lifewell in this game, only while max. a handfull of player use buff as ackstar you will strafe all buffsquadґs like KG51 and JG69 as example for new settingґs, me think when the ottoґs settings get much more shit like now, we never ever fly buffraids in JG69, my 3 centґs, greats mosche

 

About these gunners' claims, here's a nice example:
On 9.X.42 (that's 10.09.42 for you, yanks ) 108 buffs went against Lille. Gunners claimed 56 fighters shot down, another 26 probably, 20 more heavily damaged. That was a lot more than total count of German planes on that day! In fact Germans lost only one single Fw-190... All other rtb'ed.

 

lmao

 

Wrong reasoning. If buffs were more fragile, then it would require a higher level of organisation to perform a succesful buff raid: more bombers flying in a mission and good fighter cover instead of single, unprotected bombers. This way this game would become: a) much more realistic; b) harder and requiring more effort from players (though many of them wouldn't like it - pity, counterstrike is also free though...); c) it would require more work to close a field with buffs and hopefully all this idiotic field ping-pong with even 3-4 fields changing owner every 5 minutes would stop.

Also I agree 100% with babek - he makes several good points. Buffs are way to easy to destroy. The only fragile elements, especially in heavy bombers, should be engines, fuel tanks and crew (cockpit and ottos). The rest of the airframe should be able to withstand multiple 30mm hits without much harm. There are some pics of b17's returning with direct hits of heavy flak! Not to mention original German guncams where heavy bombers are peppered with 30mm and 20mm and keep flying.
Very strong airframe with several vital spots to aim at for buffs + weaker otto and this game may even become fun again.

What snake wrote - overclaims of US buff crews are fantastic. Another example: raid on Regensburg on 17.08.43, 140 German fighters claimed by USAAF gunners... Luftwaffe lost 10 fighters shot down or damaged beyond repair that day. There's many more examples for... the ineffectiveness of otto!

 

Also: pls don't count otto kills for a pilot!!

 

hi

made some tests offline

checked several bombers in a dogfight mode

average gun accuracy for otto was 50%...

still, this is just offline, wonder what are the values for online


greetz

 

Decrease drastically otto accuracy for targets at different alt, speed and aspect angle and encrease even more accuracy for lazy fighters who sit at 6 o'clock and pump lead into the bomber whitout even manouvering. This would encourage working on the bomber target by setting up the attack from front or above.
Is it realistic? More or less, but with a hopeless bomber why one should loose time to take it if ANY target in the Main Arena is easily killed with a jabo, faster and with much more fun?
Put up strategic targets which effectively change the outcome of the war, killable only with massive tonnellage of bombs, maybe a nice ".formation" dot command that automatically packs a box of bombers nearby and disable otto and buffs will see a new life...

 

Who gave the pills to Mr otto?

Whoever did it, pls PM me...I will pay well for something to increase my accuracy

 

Look at this scorepage:

http://scores.wbfree.net/cgi-bin/wbstat.cgi?type=b&showplayer=jorijn&tod=current

Its my IJN-Buffer Account. I have flown with jorijn only B5N-bombers in this RPS - no other planes.

The B5N has no offensive weapons - it has only a 7mm gun for its OTTO. So all fire done has been made by Mr. OTTO.

And now have a look at the GUNS-statistic:

141 shots - 141 hits = 100%


Thats what I call unrealistic supersniper.

 

srry babek, the statistic say apples is a dump , he flies your long 6 and your otto has easy to get him 141 hitґs, babek that is to easy, isn it?

 

the answer is too easy.

Just look up on the scorepage: 1 kill + 2 assists.

Not a single event.

And this was only the B5N paperplane, which blows up after few hits and with an OTTO who has only a limited firearc.

Now try to imagine the effect of otto when its a Me410 with double 12mm german guns with high firerate, good firearcs and the strong airframe of the 410.

 

babek, it is so what i say, when you have looser fighter on your long 6 they will die, your otto has np to hit them, when yourself go in gunner position youґll have imho np to hit 100% and kill them, mosche

 

I'm with babek for toughening up buffs. It is somewhat ridicolous that f4f kills Ju88 with 3 sec burst...
And, I've read about finnish pilots who started shooting from d2-d1,5 and aimed first for the tail gunner, killed him and then started to work with buffs engines. Well, I tried to that offline Apparently it's easier to destroy buffs rear fuselage than kill the tailgunner (needles to say, I got about 8 billion hits from otto while flying at D3 at it's six)
Was it at this forum that someone stated that zekes had to let B-17 go, cause they ran out of ammo, and the B-17 kept on flying? (memory don't serve me right)

So, Yes to more gun dispersion for otto, but No to removing them completely

airfax

ps. Also bigger blast radius for bombs would increase realism.