hi hans haupt, thanks for letting me know, what you "personally" want from warbirds and which kind of games you want to play. but a change of game-characteristics is a change! and discussing possible changes should be free of offending phrases like "dweebs" and so on. also maybe there are other reasons for voting for the state-of-art, not only loving furballs! if i were not posting, i would call you bigmouth, hans haupt. i would be polite and also say: no offense! but this is the forum, so i say: i hope you will find a situation, which you haven't had in all the years of warbirds and which is not boring, master hans haupt!
Dont appeal calling me "master hans haupt" Im not master, im just another player that wants more challenge to grow up. Im not just letting you know whats my personal opinion, im pretty sure this opinion is the same of many others here. The majority may agree with at least 90% of my post >>i suppose<<. If you want to be happy dont take offense from someone u dont know and also is not talking directly to. Maybe i should use the word NOVICE/NEWBIE instead of DWEEB. Since english isnt my native language and im learning it by myself this 2 words used to mean the same for me. Now checked the dictionary and figured out that 2 words means different things. DWEEB: person with limited social and technical skills, generally a geek wannabe Person who is stupid, lacks style or is otherwise annoying. NEWBIE: a term to describe anyone new to an area. Thanks man, u made me find some evolution for my language on this forum, if things changes in WB arena you may find some evolution for you flying skills there too. I never did mean to offend but >>Forgive me<<. Sincerely, [ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: Hans Haupt ]
now it's my turn. someone here is behaving like a school brat. everyone here knows of whom am i talking about. i can say that i ignored the major part of this thread, since it's nothing more that whining and something else that i cannot describe, as i would be considered very rude. i'm now talking as sturmtruppen squad leader. the kursk scenario was a blessing for us. it forced us to adopt new, more realistic, reliable, mutual assistance, agressive, etc, tactics to survive the arena. i can only say it worked. we could almost feel fear at times, when we could not know if the con on or 6 high was a con or a friend. knowing that our bullets would indeed damage our partners, some snapshots were avoided. please do notice that on this squadron we have some good and some new pilots ( some of which can't even control the plane very well... ) when me, rcosta and platy flied together as a group, i can almost say that the air superiority could almost be achieved temporarely. this is is not a lie, since the server logs can quite show it very well d30 icons are a perfect nonesense, and the kursk scenario proved it. if you know your enemies' aircrafts, you can identify them at d50+, at both screen resolutions. people that are playing at 640x480, even in 2d, have advantage on the others that play at high resolutions. why? because we tested it here during the scenario. i can pretty say that a new pilot that checks the list of all planes offline ( or online ) can learn how to recognise them ( or at least have an idea ) when they are only 1/2 pixels ( dots ). i've told this before. compare a p51b to p51ds, spit/hurri , 109f... etc... they are really easy to recognise. "ho no, i was massacred during the scenario so i don't even want to try to fly again without d30 icons" this reminds me of an older "scandal", when we found out that pilots could fly online with easy mode enabled. the ones that were using it told here all kind of lame excuses to keep it connected, but reason prevailed. they were forced to drop the vices they had and learn how to fly "the real mans' plane". do you hear them now complaining about easy mode? no. now they are oponents instead of targets! you can choose. be an target or be an ace. it's up to you. if you keep these arena settings, there's not many chances to be anything but a target. think. be open minded. that's all for tonight, it's 4:58 and i have to wake up at 9:00.
i forgot to add these quotes from someone refered here... "As a fighter pilot, I knew from my own experiences how decisive surprise and luck can be for a sucess - which in the long run only comes to the one who combines daring with cool thinking". "Individual victories in the air should be subordinate to the overall sucess of the group....The most important principle is to insure that those under you feel that their commander understands their worries; that the commander can be approached by anyone in the group; that what he demands of the group is necessary, and that you would never demand of them more that what you are willing to demand of yourself." Guess who said/wrote this? No one else but Gen. Adolf Galland. ( in a way, reinforcing our arguements ) have a nice day. in. http://members.aol.com/geobat66/galland/quotes.htm [ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: mcosta ]
hi hans haupt, pardonnez moi, i haven't known, that you speak for 90%! and whom you mean, when you talk of "dweebs furballers and ignorants will stay"? the other 10%, and maybe i'm amongst them? and as i think your english is prettygood, i may be allowed to say, that i presume you have known the difference between dweeb and newbie! finally, i have nothing to forgive, but i thank you for what you mean with it. best wishes
My LAST post for you Ledada, you may keep posting after that if u want, but will be a waste of your precious time. >>>grow up<<<
Ho-Hun. You want to post pics of different wb fighters from d60 and ill identify them. I'm sure that i get more than 50% right. Color tells it all. Do we really need bright icons with range on top of this? Icons are more warning singns for me than representative of planes. With long icons i can fly relaxed and one hand on controls only looking around briefly once in 30 seconds. There is no tension no excitement. By icon closure rates i can count cons E quite accurately and usually i know before fight if im going to kill him after merge. Without icons i have to be on my toes. I have to scan sky continuously. I have to look different parts of sky..no just snap all the views around. Im nervous when i attack cons because i cant tell their exact E-state. So ho-hun you want some scientifical data? I cant do that..i dont have it. Do you think RL pilots felt relaxed? Do you think they didn't watch the sky all the time..even when it wasnt really necessary. Do you think they mostly saw contacts over 9.9km. (i mostly see dots in wb quite near max range unless they are against ground, camo makes difference). In your example picture ho-hun. If these planes had constant colouring..yes i would most likely identify them even as dots. About tailchasing. Havent seen that happen much. In kursk arena. I see dot...it is gray. So i call wingman clock x possible con, and ch100 possible con at n.n.n area heading about n, alt n. Then i start setting up my attack. I say my wingman to follow me d15-d20(see most in aircombat is about who sees who first, i guess youve heard RL pilots talking about that) Ok we dive under him in our 190s at d15 i say my wingman it's yak or la5. Con rolls and notices me..he has been observant i tried to stay under his wing. I fly below him and continue straight without maneuvers hoping him to drop to my tail. (he thinks im not very high on E as im lower than him) he drops to my 6 i pull in shallow climb and my wingman finishes this con from low 6. I can E-fight without icons. I can B&Z without icons. If you cant it only need little bit of training. 1.Icons are unrealistic IMHO because with icons i can judge enemy E-state from 3km distance almost perfecly. (just look his direction and closure) I almost instantly know if i have more E than him. As you know most fights are won by plane with more E. This makes flying really boring. 2.icons are unrealistic warning signs which make you able not to really even look around...just check for any red signs briefly. This also takes away excitement. these are two main points i prefer short/no icons. ho-hun i understand your view so i would be happy if you really read this. I've got my points too.
Hi Hans, >Now, if you dont really like WWII history/planes and u say u not interested in evolution in what u do then go do something better for your life and dont stay here asking for stupids configs just because its easy for you. Foul! Where did I say I want something "just because it's easy for me?" Find a quote! My target is realism. >Good pilots who want more challenge will give up from here and only dweebs furballers and ignorants (not to offend) will stay and will definitely ruin it. Foul! How shouldn't I be offended by you counting me to the dweeb furballers and ignorants? Hans, you've overstretched your arguments, and I'm disappointed that you're beginning to rely on dubious claims you can't substantiate. Regards, Henning (HoHun)
Hi Mcosta, >someone here is behaving like a school brat. everyone here knows of whom am i talking about. Since you're arguing against my points, I've to assume you're talking against me. I challenge you to either point out what you don't like, or to stay silent about it. Veiled insults like the one above are foul play. >if you know your enemies' aircrafts, you can identify them at d50+, at both screen resolutions. I challenge that claim. Post some screenshots to prove it, please. If you don't, stay silent about it. >"ho no, i was massacred during the scenario so i don't even want to try to fly again without d30 icons" Foul! You're implying I said something I never said. Regards, Henning (HoHun)
Hi Illo, >You want to post pics of different wb fighters from d60 and ill identify them. I'm still waiting for someone to post screenshots of the Warbirds Spitfire at D5 to compare that to real life. >With long icons [...] ID icons and range icons are different things. We're talking about ID icons right now. >So ho-hun you want some scientifical data? I cant do that..i dont have it. Yes, I want some scientifical data Below, I'll explain why. >Do you think RL pilots felt relaxed? Do you think they didn't watch the sky all the time..even when it wasnt really necessary. Do you think I'm feeling relaxed? Do you think I'm not watching the sky all the time? I jump in my seat each time the doorbell rings when I'm flying Warbirds ... different people feel differently, that's why the "feeling" approach is doesn't work. >Do you think they mostly saw contacts over 9.9km. (i mostly see dots in wb quite near max range unless they are against ground, camo makes difference). As far as I know, maximum dot range is not influenced by the icon settings, so I think we should keep it out of this discussion. >About tailchasing. Havent seen that happen much. That highlights another reason the "feeling" approach doesn't work - different people have different experiences. All my fights in the Kursk scenario were tailchases. >1.Icons are unrealistic IMHO because with icons i can judge enemy E-state from 3km distance almost perfecly. Again, ID icons and range icons are different things, and we're talking about ID icons right now. This also applies to 2. >ho-hun i understand your view so i would be happy if you really read this. I've got my points too. Thanks for the rational analysis, I wish everyone would argue as sober and precise as you! I see your points, but disagree on the "feeling" approach. I think the issue of range icons is much less clear cut than that of ID icons, so if you'd like, you could open another thread to discuss range icons specificially. I'd be happy to answer Regards, Henning (HoHun)
>i'm now talking as sturmtruppen squad leader. the kursk scenario was a blessing for us. it forced us to adopt new, more realistic, reliable, mutual assistance, agressive, etc, tactics to survive the arena. i can only say it worked. >we could almost feel fear at times, when we could not know if the con on or 6 high was a con or a friend. knowing that our bullets would indeed damage our partners, some snapshots were avoided. this is certainly more realistic. >How about posting a nice screenshot of a Spitfire at D5 as it's displayed on your monitor so that we can compare it to the real life picture? Please state which resolution you're using when you post the picture for a better comparison. i wont do that. firstly because i dont have a photo editor that can give me a mosaic effect with the precise resolution i want. how did you do yours? secondly because this is getting out of hand!! you can see the vertical tail surface of a buff at the distance where a p51 is a non-blinking tiny dot. enough said! i was practicing offline, and i was able to identify planes beyond icon range. (offline icon range, wich is d99!) as mcosta said, know thy foe! WB has a much limited arsenal, and that combines with the limited resolution. cya around! nic
Hi Nicae, >this is certainly more realistic. I'm afraid since you don't have any real life standard to compare it to, you can't even attempt a valid comparison. It's all "feeling". >i wont do that. firstly because i dont have a photo editor that can give me a mosaic effect with the precise resolution i want. You don't need the mosaic effect if you're posting a screenshot. Warbirds will be doing the mosaic automatically. >secondly because this is getting out of hand!! We're on page 5 of this thread. High time to post some evidence, I'd say! I know your claims about what you can do, but without that screenshot, they're not verifyable and therefore meaningless. Regards, Henning (HoHun)
hey there hohun >ID icons and range icons are different things. We're talking about ID icons right now. IMO they are all in this discussion. from what i understood you defend the existence of icons themselves with the ID tag. and the icons the way they are include range. >>So ho-hun you want some scientifical data? I cant do that..i dont have it. >Yes, I want some scientifical data Below, I'll explain why. you forgot something >>Do you think RL pilots felt relaxed? Do you think they didn't watch the sky all the time..even when it wasnt really necessary. >Do you think I'm feeling relaxed? Do you think I'm not watching the sky all the time? I jump in my seat each time the doorbell rings when I'm flying Warbirds ... different people feel differently, that's why the "feeling" approach is doesn't work. different people feel differently, true. but the stimulation is the same. (stimulation, not simulation ) if you get nervous with icons, you must freak out without them. but RL combat didnt have icons. (even if they had RL resolution, there were no laser icons) so that freak feeling is the realistic one. (this is a matter of icons, not ID) >>Do you think they mostly saw contacts over 9.9km. (i mostly see dots in wb quite near max range unless they are against ground, camo makes difference). >As far as I know, maximum dot range is not influenced by the icon settings, so I think we should keep it out of this discussion. it is linked. spotting dots means you dont need icons. (icon, not ID discussion) >>About tailchasing. Havent seen that happen much. >That highlights another reason the "feeling" approach doesn't work - different people have different experiences. All my fights in the Kursk scenario were tailchases. you had bad luck. you were flying when and where tailchasers were. where i was, there wasnt that. i only saw 1 tailchase. how many have i seen in regular arena? maaaany! >>1.Icons are unrealistic IMHO because with icons i can judge enemy E-state from 3km distance almost perfecly. >Again, ID icons and range icons are different things, and we're talking about ID icons right now. This also applies to 2. we arent only talking about ID. >>ho-hun i understand your view so i would be happy if you really read this. I've got my points too. >Thanks for the rational analysis, I wish everyone would argue as sober and precise as you! I see your points, but disagree on the "feeling" approach. I think the issue of range icons is much less clear cut than that of ID icons, so if you'd like, you could open another thread to discuss range icons specificially. I'd be happy to answer 2.icons are unrealistic warning signs which make you able not to really even look around...just check for any red signs briefly. This also takes away excitement. cya! nic btw, hohun.. pls stay away from this forum for enough time for me to reply.. you already answered my other post
Hiya >>this is certainly more realistic. >I'm afraid since you don't have any real life standard to compare it to, you can't even attempt a valid comparison. It's all "feeling". its not only feeling. its situation, its combat, its procedures, its challenge, its a simulation. >>i wont do that. firstly because i dont have a photo editor that can give me a mosaic effect with the precise resolution i want. >You don't need the mosaic effect if you're posting a screenshot. Warbirds will be doing the mosaic automatically. how did you do yours? and posting screenshots wont work. i tried taking screens of clear aircraft beyond d99, but my 640x480 resolution becomes squished when seen in regular windows resolutions. and i can guarantee you that the dots were perfectly identifiable. >>secondly because this is getting out of hand!! >We're on page 5 of this thread. High time to post some evidence, I'd say! >I know your claims about what you can do, but without that screenshot, they're not verifyable and therefore meaningless. evidence of what? of my skill of identification? i can upload some of my brain software for you to check it out another day. honestly.. you can see the vertical tail surface of a buff at the distance of where a p51 is a non-blinking tiny dot. and in 640x480. what other evidence needed?
another thing: a screenshot only means a still frame. but when playing WB, the group of frames eases the identification by many times. and not even several sequential screens can reproduce that ease.
Hi Nicae, >from what i understood you defend the existence of icons themselves with the ID tag. and the icons the way they are include range. There are two different ranges: ID icon range and range icon range. >you forgot something No, I didn't. >(even if they had RL resolution, there were no laser icons) so that freak feeling is the realistic one. (this is a matter of icons, not ID) The requirement for a realistic simulation with realistic tactics - and that's what you need for "realistic feeling" - is realistic identification ranges. >>As far as I know, maximum dot range is not influenced by the icon settings, so I think we should keep it out of this discussion. >it is linked. spotting dots means you dont need icons. Please clarify: Is maximum dot range influenced by icon settings? >you had bad luck. I'm known for that. Still, different people, different experiences. I never had much difficulty to surprise people in the regular arena, either - to name one example. >we arent only talking about ID. In that case, I'm afraid some formulations in this thread were a bit unprecise since my impression was we were only talking about ID icons. Could you elaborate what your views on range icons are? Regards, Henning (HoHun)
Hi Nicae, >>I'm afraid since you don't have any real life standard to compare it to, you can't even attempt a valid comparison. It's all "feeling". >its not only feeling. its situation, its combat, its procedures, its challenge, its a simulation. If you could devise some kind of a verifyable benchmark for realism according to your definition, I might understand better what you're looking for. My verifyable benchmark for realism is identification range. >how did you do yours? Mine are real-life pictures I took with a conventional camera. Warbirds wasn't involved. >i tried taking screens of clear aircraft beyond d99, but my 640x480 resolution becomes squished when seen in regular windows resolutions. Are you talking about a cut-up picture with mad colours? Or does it just become smaller? >evidence of what? of my skill of identification? i can upload some of my brain software for you to check it out another day. LOL! We're going to have to try that out when technology is up to it But actually, the scientific approach is to reproduce conditions and see if you can reproduce results. That's why I need your screenshots, if possible. (I know Warbirds has some problems with screenshots on some systems, but someone out there must have one that works.) Regards, Henning (HoHun)
Hi Mcosta, >Just "rewind" the whole damn thread to the first message. This argueing indeed looks like kids talk. The irony is that my posts are the ones containing verifyable information, and those of the "no icon" side unsubstantiated claims. I share your frustration at this situation, but I'm not taking the blame for it. >Roger that pal, I'll shoot down some red spits on the FH, and, If I rememeber, I'll press alt-s >I'll post the same spit when he's beyond icon range, with him lower, if i can, just to make my life harder. ( res = 1024x768 3d ) Thanks a lot! Now we're getting beyond "kids' talk" finally. >but lots of guys I have shot down during this event mailed me ( or sent msgs online ) complaining that I wasn't giving them a fair chance That's funny indeed But it has nothing to do with my view on the topic, and I prefer that not to get mixed up since I've been called "Quakerdweeb" and the like several times in this discussion. Regards, Henning (HoHun)
