Congratulations Iraq...

Hey, buddy, chechnia happened to be part of Russia.
And Afghanistan is quite old stuff, isnt it? I think they learned their lesson from it.

The problem is it was too long ago (maybe ask an European to relate to the Napoleonic wars?). Since then USA has only cashing in from wars too far from its own population. Cref WWI and WWII.

As I said he sounds like a bulgarian from a century ago. We had our mission too, we had our proudness and dedication too.

we made 5 wars.

we had our 90% male mobilisation rate and our million of dead (for an 6 million nation), our hunger and plague, our million of refugees, our decades of futile terrorism battling against futile anarchism... And we talk differently today. Big portion of those that we were setting up to liberate are still like that - unliberated, but it doesnt matter anymore, 80 years later - they`ve forged their own way of living now. All we have today is many beautifully inscribed certificates of "heroic death in the battle at ..." dusting in the drawers, sour memories and couple of yearly parades of remembrance and sharing little bit proudness. However we have more wisdom.

America has yet to go through all this. It is scary for the rest of the world.

 

There isn't much I can say to refute this claim other than "we'll see about that", but I sincerely hope you're wrong on that one ... and recent developments in Iraq have given me the optimism to believe that you are.
Having said that, you are at least partially correct in stating that Iraq may not turn out a 100% pure democracy (if there is such a thing at all .... even the US is more of a republic than a democracy), but even a toned down version (say a parliamentary monarchy with republican traits) would be better than a dictatorship.

To those who keep beating the "oh come on, it wasn't about liberating Iraq" drum I want to say, yes that may be so. But you must be remarkably naive to think that ANYTHING in politics ever happens purely for the love of humanity. To some degree it's always about national interests. I hate it as much as you do, but that's just how the world works. Would be great if it wasn't so, but realistically speaking chances that this will change anytime soon aren't that good.

 

Did you ask iraqi people ( all, or at least representative amount of people ) if they are happy or not?

"Hey, buddy, chechnia happened to be part of Russia."

Yeah, so as few other countries. Does it mean that you can invade them at will?

 

Chechnia a part of Russia? Don't make me laugh. Chechnia isn't a part of Russia any more than Poland was a part of Germany. The only thing these two examples have in common is that one country got annexed by another ... which happens to be the POINT I was trying to make.
As for Afghanistan, so it's been all over for 16 years. What difference does that make? 16 years isn't that long when talking about geopolitics. And if the Russians have really learnt their lesson then I frankly don't understand what the hell they're doing in Chechnia. But before we completely turn this into a Russia-vs-America pissing match, let me say that I'm not really particularly bothered about the fact that the Russians take a stong interest in mopping up Islamic extremists in Chechnia. That's fine by me really. What I don't like is that Boroda, whose country's history has at least as many blood stains as America's, thinks he's in a position to lecture Americans on the subject of morality.

Sometimes I can't help but feel that perhaps it would have been better if America had stayed out of both wars to give Europe an opportunity to discuss its morally superior notions of liberty, equality and freedom with the sons of the third Reich, unhindered by American exploitation and oppression.

 

Ok, so in Iraq there is a bunch of people that cannot decide about their futyre and love dictatorship so leave them alone.
You wrote that was not a democratic society for ove 5000 years. I would like to remind you that democracy is quite new idea, and in all european countries there was manarchy not so long ago.
Oh, in England ( not only ) we have monarchy today. Somehow it was possible to mix monarchy with democracy i this country, so in Iraq it is not?'
Do you think that choosing goverment in elections is non-democtratic method?

 

Ok mb u know Texas not part USA ?
or mb USA is country of indians
or mb Olster not part UK ?
or Corsica not part French ?
Read book about Russian history pls.

 

Chechnia is part Russia see map if u have it
Only general Dudaev and Taliban thought on another.
Dudaev is dead, Taliban is down ...

 

Clean part Russia (Chechenia) from islamic extremism and terrorists and bandits.

He they already made it in Vietnam if u know.

 

and most of chechnian population too? (thougth.. and being dead..)
but it was all for good cause I believe, chechnya remains a great russian stronghold at caucasus
truly admirable from point of view of global politician...
but go fuck yourself with the chessboard (whoever thinks like that)

as for USA

yup nikola.. you are so right in your posts here (incl. that thread with the same name happened to be around some time ago)

 

The difference between the examples stated by you and Chechnia is that in the latter there's still a vast majority of people who don't want to be Russians. When was the last time you heard about a popular uprising of Texan peasants against their American oppressors?
I admit that in some of the cases listed by you, the respective territories were also acquired in a morally debatable land grab, though.

 

SORRY, I didnt read all the posts... just first page... I know im late to say it, but "freedom is expansive"?!?!?!?!!? Bullshit...
What is expansive is all that oil in Iraq... All the oil that will go to USA to be use on those trucks you love it, and that consume 1 liter each 4km...
Come on...
Americans really think the goverment is worried about freedom and democracy in Iraq???? There were always a big repression there... why only when the americans oil reserve went down USA worried about the freedom of those poor iraquis?...

What scares me most, is that you feel proud of it, as most of the "blind" americans do!!!!!!!

 

If u know about year agoThe referendum about it was.
If u know to 1995 year in chechnia live about 50% russians.
And many Chechinia people fight with Dudaev regime.
Actually it was mutiny but it was covered with struggle for independence and religion. If u see its "rebels" it only terrosists and bandits. He kill many civilian people and organization many teroristick attacks.
He has financial support Bin Laden and other exrim islamic organization.

I know about civilian war in USA in 1864-1865 year.
Southern states wanted will be separated but there was a war and the USA have kept unity.

Now national border 100 year or 1000 year ago was very different.
You want to history back?

 

red ant
Do you seriously believe that a man who somehow found the resources to build himself no less than 9 pompous palaces in the time from the end of the 2nd to the start of the 3rd Gulf War, would not have been able to find the means to supply his population with food and medicine ... IF THAT HAD ACTUALLY BEEN A PRIORITY TO HIM??

-+-> Us problem was Saddam or Oil?

but this leftist attitude really pisses me off
-+-> its a "US democratic Point of view"? I believe Bandar Bush think alike

simply because I didn't care enough about Iraq
-+-> As I said... but about Oil....

I think that every nation has indeed the government it deserves.
-+-> So let "Oil Nations" have its government

But now that the invasion is alread an irreversable fact of history
-+-> Irreversible fact of history means: "I did it! Now, world (iraq) swallow it!"?

struggle to restore order in Iraq
-+-> Jesus! more than one bomb by day is "order"?

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN CENTURIES, give the people of Iraq a real choice??
-+-> choice to suply cheap Oil to US SUVs?

But at least the people of Iraq now have a chance to take their future in their own hands.
-+-> You must be kidding...

Of course it is sad that so many innocent people were harmed in the process, but is a change such as this ever free?
-+-> hundreds cildren MURDERED by missiles misplacing is NOT "harmed in process" ! :mad

The real motives were a wild mix of economical and strategical interests, coupled perhaps with some typical American naivity on the part of some war proponents. But no matter what the initial motives were, I think the end result can still be good.
-+-> As we can see now, with your more than thousands joes dead and (I do not know how many iraq cildren) also


squirl
Iraq GDP growth rate: 52.30% in 2004
-+-> well after a devastated economy, even a peanut sold is a lot of improvement... :/

And about the so-called American contractor greed, consider this exchange between critics of the Iraq war and Scott McClellan, the White House Spokesman. European officials were responding to the US policy of awarding contracts only to coalition members:
-+-> This is the "morale" that justifies US actions? (sry sry bad english)


BYT
Our passion for freedom and willingness to pay the cost is borne on the fact that our grandfathers came here to escape oppression
-+-> Your passion for freedom seems reach its limits to US freedom...

redant
Chechnia a part of Russia? Don't make me laugh. Chechnia isn't a part of Russia any more than Poland was a part of Germany.

-+-> Or California, New Mexico, Louisiana, Manhattan, Texas... If U cant buy it...

sry if I offend someone... not my intent... I just to extern one humble opinion about what I think its a biased way to see the world by the eyes of mass media influence...

 

It doesn't matter how many Russians lived there really. It was still a separate country from Russia.

Right, so you Russians went into Chechnia under the pretense of removing a dictactor and restoring order ... is that what you're saying? Why is it okay when Russians do it but an attrocity if done by Americans?

Yep, that was about one and a half centuries ago. Apart from a few nutcases, I doubt a lot of southerners want the Confederacy back. Oh, and the fact that the end of Confederacy also brought about the end of slavery is a good thing, no? Even if, again, this was a pretense more than an actual motive and it really took another 100 years for Afro-Americans to really become free.

Are you asking me if I want to reverse history? I would like to in some cases, yes. Unfortunately I can't, nor can you. But this also means that it's pointless to whine about the oh so horrible liberation of Iraq like a baby who's dropped his bottle out of the buggy.

 

As I stated.. but you havn't read. Islam does not come in pair with democracy, period.

Democracy is 2500 years old now. But I don't think it's been a part of Medieval Europe... we had to develop a certain type of society to adopt the Greek invention again. Islamic society is not less developed... it just developed in another direction. Without changing the society you can't "decree" democracy there. Changes in societies take place in space of generations and do not "happen" overnight. That's the main thing USSR forgot about in Afghanistan... that seems to be the biggest error of Americans now (assuming that they can adopt demoracy to Iraqi society... or even worse, the other way round).
Instead of choosing a more gentle solution, U.S.A. decided to invade Iraq. Now U.S.A. are in a deadlock- they can't make things as they were previously, they can't withdraw either. They made themselve responsible for administrating Iraq for at least next 3-5 years (I do think even more will be necessary). Without that an ethnic, economic and cultural catastrophy of immense proportions would take place there. U.S. made an error and will pay for it dearly. IMHO soldiers themselves are not responsible for what they do there, U.S. politicians are. But there's no point in boasting in proud and congratulations for the American soldiers as By-Tor originally did at the begin of this sorry thread. I'm deeply ashamed myself, because my own country takes part in this stupid oilwar, taking part in opression of Iraqi people. Mixing economy with politics... and "freedom" with "democracy" brings such results I'm affraid I really admire the Governments of Germany and France, which from the begining onwards were against America's paranoic policy. I feel deeply disgusted by the decissions of Spain and Ukraine, which after taking part in the war itself, refused to take further, dangerous duty of keeping Iraq from collapsing and bursting in flames of civil war. By not supporting France and Germany our countries have shown how short-sighted they really are. By withdrawing their troops Spain and Ukraine had also shown a total lack of responsibility for their own decissions. I think that it is now our (Polish) duty to keep the mission in Iraq, not because it is good or will come without any cost of life (and it sure won't), but because it's the only way out now, after stupid Americans fucked that country completely up.

 

Pardon me? Do you see any connection at all between your reply and my statement you have quoted up there?? Because I sure don't. If quoting passages only to evade any arguments made in them to keep bitching how it's all about oil instead is what rocks your socks, be my guest. But please don't waste my time by addressing your ramblings to me.

Uhu ...

Change the record already!

Hey, I would have. Unfortunately my sentiments weren't really taken into consideration when the leadership of the US made its decision to invade Iraq. Again, like it or not, it has already happened and there' isn't squat you can do about it. Unless you'd like to see the US get the hell out of Iraq ASAP ... which is arguable the most stupid thing one could wish for at the moment (with regards to Iraq).

Erm ... in a nutshell, yes!

Which part of "struggle to RESTORE order" did you not understand? The word RESTORE implies an ongoing process, not an actual result.

I wouldn't even quote your repetitive parrotting of this line at all if it wasn't so funny.

If I was kidding at least I wasn't aware of it. Come to think of it, I was being damn serious actually. To me, general elections have an aura of CHOICE to them. Of course I realize that naysayers like you wouldn't let facts get in the way of a perfectly good opportunity to take a dig at evil America.

Irakis paid a heavy price, yes. I actually have an uneasy feeling about making statements like this ... after all who am I to decide who should live and who should die, but in the end I can only repeat what I've said before, freedom doesn't come for free. Besides, I believe that the hardships endured by the Iraki people as a result of the invasion will be dwarved by the benefits of no longer being ruled over by a madman responsible for the deaths of millions.

Hey, the liberation of Europe from the reign of the Nazis came at a price, too! Gee, I guess all those casualties weren't really worth it, were they.

See my post above.

Oh yeah, great move to throw in that disclaimer at the bottom of your post now that I've already typed up most of my reply. =P

You think I let the mass media spoonfeed me?? I don't know what planet you've been living on for the past few years, but it's always been my impression that the mass media take a positively anti-US stance on just about anything, so how can you accuse me of seeing the world through the eyes of the mass media?

 

So this is better?

And, plese don`t blame western countries for this, because I don`t belive that any help would reach those who need help.

@Frog: I can agree that democracy is older than I stated, and that Spain and Ukraine shown lack of responsibility.

 

Oh my Godness...
Do you think is the same case??????

 

No, I don't actually. US troops are rather not levelling the countryside and indiscriminately slaughtering people left and right.

 

If you are of a forgiving nature then you must forgive Americans. They really have little or no conception of the rest of the planet (in many cases even of their own vast country) except what they see and sometimes go and see in tourist brochures and what they are told by their President and fawning TV. They are, however, an obediant race who raise their hand to the Flag and President because he supplies places for them to live, when they fight for him in foreign parts, which are exactly like home complete with Coca Cola and Colonel Sanders Fried Chicken. Not content with killing off the indiginous population, they happily turned on their own Southern fellows and did their best to exterminate them too. They were, after all, treating their black subjects almost as badly as the present white ones treated their prisoners in Iraq. They also drive very big cars and don't want to sign up to Green policy so what is more natural than going to war to insure their supply of the black stuff. Notably, the majority of the slaves they sent in to do the job were black which may seem odd unless you know America...America...Americaaaa