Congratulations Iraq...

Discussion in 'Warbirds International' started by By-Tor, May 26, 2005.

  1. manoce

    manoce Well-Known Member

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    @afi
    as far as i have noticed it's all about politicians, state and such shit
    this suck moreorless everywhere; in usa it sucks big time; in america level of hypocrisy is just so high that it renders whole system there unbelievable in eyes of outsiders
    and if they whine.. legitimally whine.. you jump on them with saying they know shit about americans; true.. they may know shit about americans but they were not saying a shit about americans... so at the end your attitude is not helping your cause; on contrary (i could add words like idiot and such but i don't want you to take it bad ;) )
     
  2. -afi--

    -afi-- Well-Known Member

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    I stand corrected.

    I thought about that about an hour after I posted.

    However, I think it's funny how everyone talks of the US not knowing what it's like to "have a war on their own turf". Well obviously WW2 is still on the mind of many, buuuut if I had to do a rough guesstimate here, it's safe to say that many more Americans have died in wars all over this fucking place than Europeans since WW2. We know what it's like to lose people, I think that argument is fucking stupid.
     
  3. -afi--

    -afi-- Well-Known Member

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    Ahhh, hello?

    "Most Americans are stupider than my dog!"

    About politicians? I don't think so.
     
  4. Zembla JG13

    Zembla JG13 FH Beta Tester

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    There's a HUGE difference between fighting someone else's war, for someone else's freedom for someone else's land than fighting on your own ground, for your own freedom etc etc.

    If the US of A managed to convince the Iraqi people they weren't the next dictator after Saddam Hussein (not saying they are, but I can imagine lots of people think that), they wouldn't be fighting this war this way.

    But anyway, I'm not gonna get into yet another flame about the war in Iraq.

    <Z>
     
  5. PressLuftHammer

    PressLuftHammer FH Beta Tester

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    I guess Bush I,Klinton have higher IQ than Bush II.
    I think attack Iraq was stupid idea.
    But now there a situation similar to that that was in Afghanistan when the USSR there has intruded.
    Now the USA are in a situation when to remain there means to continue that that there now occurs,
    And to leave means обречь всеь this region on infinite war and an establishment терористических modes of Talibs similar to a mode in Afghanistan.
    Opponents of war also spoke about it first of all up to its beginning.
    I unfortunately do not know an exit from this situation.: (
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2005
  6. manoce

    manoce Well-Known Member

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    @afi

    I see.
    However I think that that is just ID of something more general. It's a culture and general attitude that is being commented.. not individualized people. To talk in general is a disputant's licence. You can of course jump on him but it's better to accept it as it is and pick information in general and in a context. Otherwise you'll not see out of window because of glass.

    In example - Ricedd said this "My dog knows more about the world than americans, that think the world is USA..." (not that americans are stupider - this your quoting shows your prejudicies actually ;).. or I overlooked that quote)
    Can you really say he's not right? Don't take it as personal attack on americans - imo he didnt want to touch the people but impression which with american society emanate on world. In general (concluding out of american foreign policy, how the election campaign went on last year etc) american society is very americacentric. It's quite relevant note in thread about Iraq. Moreover.. you don't know how smart his dog is ;). If he was abroad at least once.. he's above average compared to american society :p.
    But you didn't care about this. You just refused generalization as a bad thing. So bad that posts containing it are apriori bad.

    I understand your frustration. But if you want people to see USA and americans differently (hey man.. we talking in general, you remember ;) ) you should show them some reason for changing their perspectives. American society and way it influences the rest of world is very unbelievable for me or Ricedd. Jumping on people just because of that will not make them rethink it. If I would to summarize how does world see America... than the word is 'shameless'.

    And people were critizing America here for its foreign policy that is pretty unacceptable for rest of the world. And you jumped on them... shamelessly because not seeing their quotes in context.
     
  7. geobrt

    geobrt Well-Known Member

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    Maybe americans are americacentric and do not know much about world.
    But do we know more? To be honest - how meny of you have been in Iraq or know more about that country?
    You say that USA is killing people in Iraq and it is big shit there. And we don`t know it because we watch TV,and in TV is propaganda. ( It is not a quote - I do not know who, but I fink someone mentioned something like this in previous Iraqi thread )
    And I will say that what you say about killing people is propaganda as well, some kind of antiamerican propaganda.
    To know the truth we should ask someone from Iraq. Since it is rather not possible I propose to finish this topic, because we can flame eachoter here forever.
     
  8. grobar

    grobar Well-Known Member

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    Even if we supposed Chechnya was a seperate country just for the sake of argument...

    It matters how many chechens live there but:
    That is amazing!

    I am afraid the "russians=savages" is too deep rooted in western society. It reaches back to the demise of Napoleon. It is funny when I read western journalists and travellers books on Bulgaria from the 1880-1910s (thats before soviet communism). Many of them are very sympathetic to our people (!), calling for support against the Ottoman empire, against the greek and serbian occupation, etc. But all of them without exception blame Russia for any woe that happened - our prime-minister was assassinated - its russian agents, our territorry was parcelled out (by England and Germany) - its the russian evil politics, serbia attacked us in the back - its the russian government pulling all string in the region (when it was instigated by the Austrians), etc. etc. Any prime-minister who was pro-austrian is an astute statesman, if he is pro-russian - he is manipulated and paid for.
    And i dont think it is propaganda on their part. They actually believed all that.

    So, I am sorry Boroda - "children for breakfast" is just too deeply inscribed in their subconsciousness to change ever.
     
  9. grobar

    grobar Well-Known Member

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    I dont see any grounds for comparison between Iraq and Yugoslavia.
     
  10. grobar

    grobar Well-Known Member

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    Another "-centric" problem:

    "free elections = real choice"

    In some cultures this doent make any sense. I am afraid, Iraq`s might be one of those. It doesnt make too much sense even in my society, which is more or less europeanised.
     
  11. airfax

    airfax Well-Known Member

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    I used it as an example mainly because : I grew up in a world (like most of us), where were much less countries than now. Seems like every other small village wants to be independent.
    Yugoslavia, under communistic control, was one of these countries. One country. For how long, 50 or so years? And ended up into the civil war, while all of us believed to live happy and peaceful 21st century without wars.
    You know better than I do, if Yugoslavia, as a country, was "forced" to be as one nation? Despite that, it went straight to toilet. That's what I fear will happen to Iraq too. Even if they force peace to exist, eventually it's going to fail. There will be a civil war in Iraq, and only after that things will calm down. The longer the US stays in Iraq, longer wait it'll be, but eventually.....

    Correct me if I've made errors considering Yugoslavia.
     
  12. airfax

    airfax Well-Known Member

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    @squirl
    What words did I twist? I only responded to your :
    Vibora said well:
    Any questions?
     
  13. manoce

    manoce Well-Known Member

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    problem of Yugoslavia is bit more complex, airfax
    it's really not good comparison

    ie - Serbs and Croats were quite happy together under Tito; it got fucked up later when Yugoslavia turned from federal state to Serbian empire (srry for exaggeration but that's how the people there perceived it); it seemed to be a quite good idea for southern Slavs to live in one state when it was created and after all it was will of the people there
    on the other hand, Iraq as a state lacks any reason to be.. and always lacked; it's just administrative unit,nothing else
     
  14. -afi--

    -afi-- Well-Known Member

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    I definetely understand things in context. However, that statement was not in any context other than hating Americans, which Ricedd is known for. That's why I jumpd on him.

    In example - Ricedd said this "My dog knows more about the world than americans, that think the world is USA..." (not that americans are stupider - this your quoting shows your prejudicies actually ;).. or I overlooked that quote)
    Can you really say he's not right? Don't take it as personal attack on americans - imo he didnt want to touch the people but impression which with american society emanate on world. In general (concluding out of american foreign policy, how the election campaign went on last year etc) american society is very americacentric. It's quite relevant note in thread about Iraq. Moreover.. you don't know how smart his dog is ;). If he was abroad at least once.. he's above average compared to american society :p.
    But you didn't care about this. You just refused generalization as a bad thing. So bad that posts containing it are apriori bad.

    [/QUOTE]


    I definetely think he isn't right! Sure, American politics are admittedly self-centered. The nation does what is best for itself. The same goes for every other nation! If nations began to do the opposite, well we wouldn't have nations, would we (interesting thought actually :))?

    In my mind, generalizations are almost always a bad thing when in a serious context. I catch myself doing them once in a while, too, but generally I try to avoid them as much as I can.

    I wish I could show people that not all Americans are war mongering idiots! However, doing that is impossible with American politics and foreign affairs in the current condition that they are. I think you guys forget, I agree with you on American foreign policy! It's beyond belief and is getting to the point of imperialism even! It is rather shameless, I do agree. What I am jumping on everyone for is the blatant lumping of American politics with all (emphasis on ALL) of American society. It simply doesn't work that way, and unfortunately I can't think of a better way to show it over the internet than posting rather heatedly. It's just what I do.

    Shamelessly jumping on quotes? Buddy I think you've managed to mismatch your words and their meanings. Shame has nothing to do with this. And I repeat, I jumped on those guys because of their lumping of politics and society, which is fucking stupid.
     
  15. Boroda

    Boroda FH Community Officer

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    Kolio, I quote a Prussian "cartoon" from Seven-Years War, 1750s. "Cossacks with dozens of poor kids on their lances"...

    BTW, what do you think about this article? (in Russian) Look at the date it was written...
     
  16. illo

    illo FH Beta Tester

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    So was finland. Still we are NOT russians.
     
  17. squirl

    squirl Well-Known Member

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    Your original counter-statement was that my claims were wrong because Iraq is not in the top 50 richest countries. I had never said that Iraq was in the top 50 richest countries. I had said that Iraq was the fastest growing economy. A country's economy can be growing quickly, but such growth does not guarantee that it is in the top 50 economies.

    Take a look at these numbers from: http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/gulf.war/updates/iraq/

    Economy:

    GDP $89.8 billion (2004 est)*
    Per capita income $3,500 (2004 est)*

    GDP $59.9 billion (1999)
    Per capita income $2,700 (1999)

    GDP $35 billion (1989)
    Per capita income $1,940 (1989)

    GDP $19 billion (1977)
    Per capita income $1,561 (1978)

    *I added the 2004 data for convenience from http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/iz.html

    Clearly Iraq's economy has not been revived only by the "sale of a peanut." It is incredible that the economy immediately after the war is actually better than what it was before the war. It seems that many outside the United States do not get the real picture about Iraq. You think that the economy can not possibly improve in the midst of car bombings, suicide bombings and beheadings. That image is what that the European media promotes (much of the European media is state-run).

    So, frog, what was that about the pre-first Gulf War Iraq economy being developed? A per capita income of $1,940 is hardly developed, not even comparable to western standards.

    Good journalism is rare, but it sometimes surfaces:

    http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0505/226927.html

    While European (and many US) news networks immediately report on every single US casualty and roadside bomb, reports such as the one above have true titles: "U.S. Attack in Iraq Kills 100 Insurgents"
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2005
  18. manoce

    manoce Well-Known Member

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    The problem is, afi, that politics is the only thing that outsiders know about USA. However their comments may seem to you aimed at something else, it is the political representation that is guilty. Representation represents.. people that gave this representation mandate...

    Ad 'shamelessly'... well I wanted to say that there's no submission in your attitude. If there would be an European or S. American disagreeing deeply with policy of his state and this policy would be very critized here, he would prolly feel guilty and full of shame. So if you reply the way you do (hey man, you're sort of right in your way) you are showing same hated principle ppl see in american policy. No matter it's like apples and pears... this is often emotionally based. And, honestly speaking, I guess this your feeling (that ppl just hate americans because they tend to apply what they see in politics at normal americans) is overwhelming you sometimes... that you don't think, you just hate..
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2005
  19. airfax

    airfax Well-Known Member

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    Actually I didn't have any counter-statement. I was merely pointing that your "Iraq is the fastest growing economy" is a result of a twisted fact. You've taken that sentence and understanded it just how it fit to yours worldview.

    btw, you're using the same "news agency" all the time (All sources are from "Cia handbook of everything")

    and from your link:

    and

    next pls
     
  20. airfax

    airfax Well-Known Member

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    So what part did I say wrong? Tito ruled for what, 30-40years? If everyone were happy and one big family, where the hell came the conflict (civil war) then?

    In Iraq there's a quite similar situation. There are 3 major forces in a country (shias, sunnis and kurds) and there have been one strong leader. Now the leader is gone and kurds have already showed their will to be independed.

    War in Balkan was in media (at least here) represented as a somewhat religious war. Certainly religion wasn't the main reason, but part of it anyway. So why would Iraqs situation vary from it? Not all arabs are one big happy arab family....