Hi everyone, I can't stand this mad Otto any longer. He's plain unrealistic, and too lethal by an order of magnitude (or two). I never get any superficial damage from Otto - either, he doesn't hit me at all, or he kills my plane several times over again in a period that has to be mesured in fractions of a second. I don't need to go into the details of historical accuracy or Otto's flaws - lack of reaction delay, instantaneous gun traversal, perfect stabilization, resistance against G effects - since I've done that before. Instead, I'll propose to improve Otto's realism by introducing a result area between total miss and instant overkill. The parameter to achieve that seems to be b++ since this is is responsible for Otto to pour even more fire into a target when he sees any hit. This value has to be set to a minimum and locked - this behavior is what makes Otto so lethal beyond any realism. Additionally, it looks to me as if the retarget time should be set a longer time to simulate some kind of reaction time for Otto. If I flash past a slow bomber in my fighter, Otto opens up fire immediately when I enter his field of fire and kills me in the same instant, though the gunner didn't even have a chance to see me coming - for example, the top gunner will kill me immediately when I come zooming up from beneath the aircraft where he can't see me at all. If there's even a slight hesitation, he won't get that lethal close-range shot. Mad Otto is so lethal that I'd like to see an arena where all Otto-capable planes are banned. I'd prefer a game that is a contest of skill, not one that forces me to choose to be either a coward or a dead piece of cannon fodder. If the Otto-users like to bomb stuff, they can have the primary arena, but I don't want their planes or their bombs or even their radar blips to spoil what could be an entirely fun and resonably realistic game. The arena is theirs, they can keep it, just give me a place that's not infested with Ottomonsters! Regards, Henning (HoHun)
I agree Buffs are for bombing not for dogfight b++ is unfair btw why computer can shoot? pls pls no Otto hmmm ok just for one week
well, this topic has seen many days, untill we can man other peoples gun positions, otto has to keep on, or make otto shoot small bursts that are .5 seconds in length, and make a 2-4 second retarget time ((depends on aircraft, planes like me410, bf10, ju87, il2 should have slightly better otto because there gunners are better trained then a b17 gunner))
Why shouldn't we be able to control the length of the burst.I'm telling you, if I was a gunner, no matter what training said, I would fire long bursts at those bastards trying to shot at me.
Fla, HoHun is right. You are talking of b+, while HoHun talks of strange b++ parameter. HoHun, could you make tests of this matter and propose a good settings for ottos, including "ac"? I hope you'll leave b+ and rg parameters for fla's temperament
B+ is the basic burst duration. B++ is how much that duration is extended once the gunner is getting hits (B+ 4.0 and B++ 4.0 means that once he starts hitting, he more or less fires continuously as long as he's getting hits, which usally results in quick and total destruction of the enemy aircraft) Yes, obviously, specifying burst length, intervals and so on is realistic, but the problem is, the underlying code behind Otto is not. Perhaps by limiting the options to certain minimal values we can trade that little bit of non-realism to make Otto overall more realistic. Personally, I doubt it. No tweaking of Otto settings is really going to change things all that much What it needs is just a complete rebuild at the FE level. However, I don't think Otto overall is too good. It's screwed up, and yeah, at certain things it's WAY too good. What especially pisses me off are the flopping bombers -- people doing fairly wild maneuvers, just inside Otto's limits, making themselves harder targets while their defensive guns are still placing ludicrously accurate fire at close range. However, Otto also sucks royally at range, so overall, it's not usually that big of a threat IMO. Just fire from farther out and you'll be fine. What really sucks are the aircraft like the 109T and A6M, who have such a limited ammunition load that they can't really afford to fire from farther out or they risk missing with so much of their ammo they -can't- down the target (eg- TBFs) It's kinda stupid, how impotent Gold carrier fighters are at defending the fleet.
Also I dont agree with the theory mekh described. The OTTO´s of a bomber immediately stop firing if a bomber is doing wild maneuvers. If they dont do hard turns the y continue to fire - and I think thats realistic. So the most stupid thing a bomber pilot could do (if he has a living OTTO with ammunition left) is to do extreme maneuvers. I killed during this ToD with my OTTO´s 15 fighters and in nearly every of these kills it was because of the bad attack tactic of the fighter pilots. In most cases it happened that way: When I get the report that a fighting is incoming, I normaly hit "T" and so the OTTOs will not shoot. Then I level my bomber and set the automatic pilot. So for the fighter it looks like that I dont have the info that he is approaching. Meanwhile I switched to outside looking mode, and I wait until the fighter is at D6. In nearly every of the kill-cases they came from low six and were in a soft climbing maneuver. At D6 I hit T again, activate my climb speed and bring the plane in an extremely soft turn. The bomber gets very slow but is not stalling. Because of the turn maneuver, planes like He177 could fire more than one turret. The fighters always overreacted. They fired blindly - doing in best case some minor damage and tried to climb hard - which make them extremely slow and a very good target for the OTTO. So they died. I was also killed very often by fighters who used the much more effective tactic by attacking me from the side or with an altitude-advantage. But the point is that 1. OTTOs dont fire if the evasive maneuvers are too hard and 2nd the fault often lies in the bad tactic of the fighters. It sould be also condidered that bombers (except the G4M paperplane) were much more stable in reality than shown by the damage model of FH. Planes like Ju88 or B17 were known to return to their bases despite they were hit by hundreds of bullets. There are also reports of german and US bombers who returned after they were rammed by soviet/japanese fighters. Here in FH I lost yesterday a He177 which was hit only 4 times with 20mm. The complete rudder structure was cut of the plane by these 4 shots - and the plane was unflyable, so I had to eject. And theis rudder-crippling after very few hits happens very often with the 177. Thats not very realistic in my eyes. But back to the topic: To reduce the effectiveness of the defense-capabilities of bombers in this game is not a good idea. I know that a majority will disagree - but its also a fact that the majority of the FH community is prefering fighters instead of bombers, so they tend to sympathise with ideas making these big targets easier to kill.
ottos are unrealistic. and i agree with hohun. @hohun: something that may help you in testing: .otto parameters influence enemy ottos offline. so its a good idea to do that "buff raid" mission, adjusting the ottos, and testing their lethality inside enemy fighter. doing that is how i found out of b++ importance in otto killing. suxxx hope this helps.
babaek is right here, 90% of otto kills are those retards that attack from my 6 low climbing, and I actully do what he says, keep otto off untill D5, then let them have it My buff tactic gunners report a fighter, turn my plane where they would aproace the best gunners, level out, gain speed, let them catch me, auto climb when they are D6 away, and let otto nab them, lauph at them when they call me an ackstar because im 10k feet above a field, bomb target, same person usaully attacks me again, dies the same way, ATTACKING low 6 Guys, you got to seriously be dumb to attack on a bombers 6 low, or a fighter-bombers 6 high.
I have a lot of time in bombers myself, and I'm quite familiar with how the system works. Obviously, you are not. Yes, Otto will cut out eventually at a certain point (too many G's, too much bank) but within those limits there's still a fairly wide range left in which the aircraft can maneuver and evade and Otto will still be fully accurate. This is obviously a highly unrealistic abuse of the system. IMO, any level bomber that is relying on Otto is either abusing this system as above, or just downright stupid. Any experienced player WILL dismantle you from beyond Otto's effective range, and not let themselves get close enough. By manning the guns yourself (Especially that nice 20mm tailgun on the 177) you can drop a slowly approaching con at at ranges long enough that they potentially haven't even begun firing. Besides, it's more fun that way So, aside from the exploits, Otto is a moot point on the heavies. I'd personally prefer a system like Aces High there: no Otto at all, but all guns fire where you do. Where it's really a problem, is the tactical bombers, namely TBFs and IL-2s. They're small targets, they're even more maneuverable, they take a lot of ammo to bring down, and the tailgun will completely annihilate anyone close to them, even despite the aircraft's maneuvers (which would throw off any human gunner's aim) -- with these, you also can't take the solution of the Heavies and nuke otto entirely, as the pilot of the light bombers is always busy. Unfortunately, Otto can't really be fixed without a complete recoding.
If someone is attacking your bomber low and slow from dead 6, you've got to be seriously dumb to let Otto do the firing. Any halfway experienced player will shoot you down long before Otto ever touches them.
Its nice to see that you believe that you are familiar with bombers and to be able to define my bomber qualities. If I personally would see your definition as accurate I would comment your thesis further but so fortunatly there is no waste of time and I can come directly to the 2nd part of your statement: In your 1st mail you wrote that OTTOS would continue firing while the bomber is making "wild maneuvers". Now you have corrected your expert definition in this mail where you describe that they will be cut out. So you have agreed that OTTOs stop firing if a bomber pilot is doing wild maneuvers and corrected your 1st mail. Thats fine and shows that you have at least made some flights with bombers under fire.
BTW, you syhould be able to man otto, and AI otto on small craft WITH out bombsite should be manual only
otto sux ass bad here, but its far from the worst added feature here.. The only real solution is 2 revert 2 the default WBs game... The crap wasnt omitted at ien because it wasnt thought of, but because it was... but, ya, bak 2 the thread.. The otto here is a joke...
well hell, as long as im here.. iv been kilt many more times by a 1 winged, spinnin n burnin bummer than i have by live 1's... A human would have a very hard time even tryin 2 touch the tip of his nose in that situation, let alone track a plane with consistantly miraculous accuracy...
My opinion is, that the ottos of the big buffs aren`t a problem becaus these planes are big and slow, so you are able to bring them down without being hit. But this medium buffs and ground attack planes like PE2, TBF and IL2, for example, are the Problem. The PE2 is too fast, to get them without staying a longer time near. The ottos of PE2 are sniper ottos. They only hit you a few times and you loose your engine, flaps alerions or you get a pk. Regardless what angle and speed you are attacking, ottos of PE2 hit you in every situation. Sometimes it only needs 2 hits with the 12mm to kill the engine or the pilot IL2 and tbf is much too maneuverable and ottos continue fire at you, regardless what angle the il2 pilot flys. I often have the situation, that i am higher and faster, but if i dive on them they only make a high yoyo to outmaneuver me while ottos are doing their work This is totally unreal. Try to shoot at a fighter, wich is 200-300 km/h faster an diving on you from 3 or 9 o`clock, while your plane makes a hard maneuver. You would never hit anything In the actual situation i would prefer, to engage three fighters with more energie like me, than one lonely IL2 flying low and slow So my conclusion is, let the ottos of the big buffs as they are, but lower the accuracy and the g-limit of those little, heavy armed Planes to balance the game. Cu Flubby
Ottos aren't fires in hard maneuvers. BWT, when i in hmack, i relatively easy hit planes what attacking me or flying near (d2 - d4), although high speed of approach. Slowly approaching plane is easy target for otto. It's right.
