P38

Discussion in 'Warbirds International' started by demian, Sep 13, 2010.

  1. demian

    demian Well-Known Member

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    Those planes you mentioned are opposition to P38 but are not those for comparing p38 to. Not so long ago, this war turned into red vs red war.
    So, dont compare it to gold planes, golds are losing side, compare it to red planes. Try for example elevator control in mustang or P47 at high speeds, then try to pull up only with joystick P38L after just 2 minutes of straight level flight. I know you never claimed p38 being the best , but you dont read my posts, in one of those i said that someone read some book and has some oppinion about it. Yes, I understand ur satisfied, the way every good pilot on fh is satisfied with flying average plane. Problem here is that we have many planes that are not average , but better, closer to uber or real , so why p38 would be plane that cant stay alive under 3km for 2 minutes? Your flying style says nothing about ur plane, same results you would have with any other airplane , even better. I admit, i saw you flying P38 on the edge , but that edge is not same as edge under 3km versus 3 cons.
    P38 was great airplane, and I dont accept fh gameplay where P38 is nothing special and yaks ,las rules. That turning with flaps, mb not, mb yes , i dont know , but for sure when I say " P38 needs fixing" i mean even that.I mean it needs testing, finding real data, real stories, comparing and making something good. Even if that means changing type of plane, like mb taking 38F 15 or mb P38G just something there is data for.
    I dont like how we have Palestinian PLO model , which i cant find data for, just because it had bombs.
     
  2. Higgns

    Higgns Well-Known Member

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    Ok....I flew p38 for many missions today and something is definately wrong with current flight model.....at least the p38f I flew.

    Were any changes made to the arena "coefficient of lift"?

    Some planes perform as if that setting was changed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2010
  3. -ALW-

    -ALW- Well-Known Member

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    If you throttled down the right or left engine you could. That was one thing I read about the P-38. It's ability to turn quite well by reducing RPM to an engine. I've experimented with that but, the current modeling in WB, it treats it like a disadvantage due to the poor trimming response and heavy nose problem.
     
  4. -ALW-

    -ALW- Well-Known Member

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    Try this Higgns....

    I'd like anyone here to try this test.
    Take whatever plane you fly the most or not at all, enter the TA (Training Arena), take off from an airstart field with a set starting altitude (F1, F2, F3, etc). Notice what that aircraft does without any input. Now, try the P-38s. I know this is a game but, when there is only one model of aircraft in the game that goes into a nose down dive from the start, there is a problem. When a twin engine aircraft with counter-rotating blades both spinning, will torque roll when taking auto-trim off, there's a problem. When it starts to lose alt and keeps dropping, there's a problem. Only the P-38 has these issues. Try the B-25. Try the 110. Try the Mossie. Try the Beaufighter. If nobody can see this problem, they lacking in something.
     
  5. gandhi

    gandhi Well-Known Member

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    Not to say that the P-38 is fine, but there is not much alarming about the P-38F results I got. The results are actually quite good, but the scan shows that it might have been even better in the oft-cited "real life."

    Not sure what to say about the other issues related to control, will check that in a minute.
     
  6. Red Ant

    Red Ant Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand how differential throttle settings would allow for tighter turns. I believe the real purpose of differential throttle, if it was used at all (most pilots didn't bother, from what I read), was to initiate a roll as quickly as possible.
     
  7. Higgns

    Higgns Well-Known Member

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    My only complaint is that it's near impossible to generate enough G's to induce blackout unless you use full elevator up trim while every other fighter can induce blackout at a wide range of speeds.

    Most of the complaints on this plane are the same error which will manifest itself in different ways depending on what the pilot is doing.

    It either has a wing area or chord issue or it has an elevator area or chord issue.
     
  8. mumble

    mumble Well-Known Member

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    For now, it's best to maneuver the P-38 in the 100-250 MPH speed range. 250 is pushing it a little, but if you're planning on going vertical it's best you get that at the bottom, wings level portion of your loop.

    As far as flap/power settings, it's a binary system. Either your flaps are 100% or 0, and your power settings are idle for anything nose low and add power as necessary if and only if your nose is above the horizon. Don't worry about losing your speed even if you're just a little nose low because the P-38 is a very clean airplane and very heavy. You'll pick up what you think you lost and then some quickly even with your engine at idle.

    Again, the P-38 isn't a world beater, but it's one of the few planes that can handle just about anything by using both the vertical and horizontal plane. The yo-yo is your friend in the P-38.

    I wish antred or alw would have written this, because they have several metric tons more experience in the P-38 than all of us put together I think.

    IMHO, the only thing I now think needs to be altered with the P-38 is the autopilot system. I think there may be a pitch authority issue that causes it, but I don't have access to the code and probably wouldn't be able to figure it out anyway. :dura:
     
  9. demian

    demian Well-Known Member

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    It is not responsive.Bad elevator responding imho. Plus it cant climb at 170mph , and it should be able to do so. So if cant climb at 170mph, how can that be ok Mumble?
     
  10. mumble

    mumble Well-Known Member

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    It can't climb at 170 mph on autopilot. I can fly it much slower than that by hand if I really wanted to.

    Just a thought that entered my mind, but maybe this has something to do with how stick force is emulated in the P-38. That could be one of the reasons why the autopilot doesn't work. It's like saying you can climb at your published speed, but you'll have a stick force of 50 lbs. or something ridiculous. This makes sense when you consider that one can still maneuver fairly well in the P-38, but you have to be doing so with the stick full back most of the time and adjusting power to match radius.
     
  11. demian

    demian Well-Known Member

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    Bad elevator response.Ever flown 190d9? I mean you can break joy if you want but it wont help.F6f was like that also..
     
  12. mumble

    mumble Well-Known Member

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    So you mean to say that it is good? Then what is your thesis on the autopilot issue? May I remind you that the F-4U had the same issue, and I have spent considerable time in that airframe. Yes, it sucked. I'm just suggesting that maybe some of the issues with those planes may apply to the P-38. It may be something completely different. I have no changelog containing that information to confirm any ideas, so neither one of us have a clue. :shuffle:
     
  13. demian

    demian Well-Known Member

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    I dont know about f4u , i know only about f6f ,dora and now p38. I would say it is same .As for auto trim, dunno. Just wanted to say , no need for you to think about that so much , important is to notice problems and to post. We dont know and dont need to know solutions;)
     
  14. -exec-

    -exec- FH Consultant

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    anybody to summarise?

    form:
    P-38F-1-LO

    pitch control: at low speeds <describe error>, at medium speeds <describe error>, at hight speed <describe error>

    dead loop parameters - speed, radius, time: <describe error>

    roll control: at low speeds <describe error>, at medium speeds <describe error>, at hight speed <describe error>

    roll speed: at low speeds <describe error>, at medium speeds <describe error>, at hight speed <describe error>

    rudder control: at low speeds <describe error>, at medium speeds <describe error>, at hight speed <describe error>

    turn time, speed, radius: at low speeds <describe error>, at medium speeds <describe error>, at hight speed <describe error>

    climb time to alt: 3000ft, 6000ft, 9000ft, 12000ft, 15000ft, 18000ft, 21000ft - <describe error>

    stall speed: without flaps <describe error>, with flaps <describe error>

    P-38J-15-LO
    same as above

    P-38L-1-LO
    same as above

    <described error> must include references to 1942-1945 reports
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2010
  15. -exec-

    -exec- FH Consultant

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    same for other airplanes, like f6f, a6m etc
     
  16. demian

    demian Well-Known Member

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    OTW, just need some time for that..I mean, ALW would be the best person to do this, of course with our help..
    (Do Not touch f6f :p)
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2010
  17. Higgns

    Higgns Well-Known Member

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    I described above my theory on p38 trouble.

    Either the elevator area or chord is wrong or the wing area or chord is wrong.
     
  18. mumble

    mumble Well-Known Member

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    I'll let you give me "references" so I can calculate what's right and wrong.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2010
  19. -exec-

    -exec- FH Consultant

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    references are in the beginning of the topic
     
  20. mumble

    mumble Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so those are actually fair game and deemed acceptable?

    Just some interesting bits then.

    I would feel better if gandhi were to verify this, but with data from hoof's performance pages used in some calculations, I compared Bf-109F-4 with P-38 data given here. I find a Cl max of ~2.26 for the Bf-109, and gandhi shows a 2.34 for the P-38F for full flap configurations on both aircraft. Maybe I just suck at flying or something, but it seems to me the P-38 should be able to at least turn with the 109.

    DISCLAIMER: I have no idea what exact procedures gandhi uses for testing purposes, so I went with non-current data to approximate Bf-109F-4 data.

    If a certain pilot ever calms down long enough, I'll see if I can't get him to cooperate with me in doing some actual turn radius testing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2010