Light low alt planes

Discussion in 'Warbirds International' started by demian, Sep 23, 2010.

  1. demian

    demian Well-Known Member

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    Wanted to post under 168 thread, but then I realized this problem is much bigger than any specific version. So,lets start.

    Yak 1 ser 20
    Yak 1 ser 111
    Yak 1b pvo
    Yak 7b
    Yak 9D
    Yak 9T
    Yak 3

    Problem is in performance. I have said many times, our new Fm maker is good. Very good. But he should be controlled. He needs boss.
    Lagg was really bad in ver 1.66, so it got 23vya. Not only that , it got new dynamics. La was really bad in 1.66 but is better now. Yak 1 was bad but is better now. Then yak7 was introduced. Beautiful plane, not best not worst.
    Yak 9d ,T, 3, were never bad. Then we come to a problem , Yak 1 ser 111 and especially Yak 1 pvo. What is their purpose in the game? What is the plan for future fh versions?
    Had a chance to see YAK PVO in training arena. What kind of idiot needs this plane? This is an insult to all real life russian pilots imho.
    Do you really think Russians were so good in ww2 because they had good planes? So they need to be represented in this game like this?
    I agree, Yak was very good Irl. But do we really need to represent best models of yaks , while we have P47D instead of P47M ?
    Where do we stop with this , where we decide we dont want best models in our game? I dont want 109g10 , I dont want Yak U , there is no need for that.
    There are 3 basic styles of flying, and only YAK and LA can be flown in all 3 ways with no problem at all.Why do we need this? So we could make more and more noobs? Game doesnt need more noobs than it already has.
    I know , i know , reply will be something like " Dont fight in 109 against yak, use BNZ" . Well, how about " Dont take Yak to fight 109 , take P39?
    I am asking because today's russian planes are not made to counter germans , but japanese imho. From the very start and I153 up to Yak 3 and LA5fn.These planes can challenge any japanese plane , germans wont mention at all...
    This is not good. There are people who didnt fly 110 in 1.66, and they dont deserve this shit. There are pilots who love yaks, and who know that Yak 1 and 7b were best representatives.
    Go ahead introduce Yak U, La9, La 11, whatever suits you. This is just making people look retarded. I forgot to mention light la5 fighter. Same shit. Why yak3 is not enough ? Why reds need to have best fighters at any moment of tod? To fight zero in yak??? Fight it in F4f be real men!
    As a real red in real life, this bothers me ...idea that my side needs this to be victorius.Well, we dont. Reds dont need this. Ill have to go and fly gold when i see that PVO thing near me. I dont want to have anything with it.
    Dont need it to fight golds.Give that thing to them.
    Why would anyone fly P38 when it has this choice? Or p47? Or even mustang? In this game, due to gameplay , most of fighting happens below 3km. And i think its not fair to abuse that fact and make only good low alt fighters. On the other hand, even RPS is made for reds. Why dont we model something like 190 A1? To give golds at least more time for advantage....
    I want for example to have light model of zero. Without seat, no need compass, take away radio buffer, even take jump out command away. No need to bail at all.Ill fly my light zeke, ill kill yaks, las , and if I get hit , I wont bail. Can we make this for me? People would envy me , they would want to fly my zeke, they would ask about it. Then i would just say "Sorry, re-made in Moscow"!!
     
  2. mumble

    mumble Well-Known Member

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    MiG-3 with 2 x 7mm + 3 x 12mm is also a surprisingly good low alt fighter. If I didn't run out of 12mm killing 3 x heavies, I might have won a fight at 1km against a 109F-2 + Ki43. Then again, the opposition was flown by TGR. :p The 109 pilot did the usual BnZ nonsense, while the Ki43 was there to knife fight and extend away when the 109 made a pass. I guess they weren't quite sure how to handle a MiG-3. :shuffle:
     
  3. gil---

    gil--- FH Beta Tester

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    There are still enough pilots, who see it as obvious fact, that gold planes are ubers all the time and reds need more help to be compareable. Thx gods, much less at last 2 years. Did u hear nice word luftwinner? It is still in use and idea still alive :).
    About particular yak-1PVO, i don't see big problem for ballance with it, but i don't understand what is it needed for? It is not fast enough to be used like La or 109, it is not better than spit9 as maneuverable defense plane and it's too late to replace pure yak-9 from 1.66.
    And i agree about light La, imho there is no need of such plane at all.
     
  4. joseh-

    joseh- Well-Known Member

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    I love this config of MiG... Golds don't know how to treat a MiG when they see one... Actually I do prefer the MiG-3 19-27 instead of LaGG and its 23mm thingie.
    And Yak-1 PVO can be better than u think gil---, wait for its appearence in MA and fight against it. I agree with dem, there's no need for such plane, but I'm not a developer nor admin, so....
     
  5. Funtom

    Funtom Well-Known Member

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    I tried PVO previous tod, maybe i am wrong, i have not speedtests yet, but i think i was faster than 109g2 (maybe he was hvy, dunno) at low alt (500m), my climb was better and turns... oh man! I turned against ki43 :D

    I read only a few about pvo Yaks, i read about their weight (like zeke) so i think it's ok and not uber, but Boa wrote it very good with maps, alts, etc. :kruto:
     
  6. gil---

    gil--- FH Beta Tester

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    Really they were not so much lighter then basic yak9 or yak1 and if it can turn with ki-43 it's totally wrong. Also even the lightest PVO has less power per weight than 109g2. I tried it little and found it ok with this position, but if it is such an uber, its point to fix, imho.
    I think it has no right to outturn spit9 and outclimb 109g2, due to its specifications IRL.
     
  7. gandhi

    gandhi Well-Known Member

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    A few questions I think the community deserves answers for:

    1. How does the modeling process work? I've never seen even a short explanation, only "It's complicated."

    2. Can we have a TA for the old models (some version with not many changes to Warbirds 2.77)? Or maybe show how to set up your own server with a custom version? The track feature is nice for data recording but can only be done with the current version, and it would be nice to get numbers for the "good old days."

    3. Does anybody care? Lots of quality data have been presented showing there are fundamental flaws in the game, with little to no response.
     
  8. mumble

    mumble Well-Known Member

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    No, nobody cares. Fas is just doing FM work during his free time because he's a workaholic. :rolleyes:
     
  9. gil---

    gil--- FH Beta Tester

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    As i understood, there is a tool, that makes it possible to see as table and change some parameters of flight model (some is hundreds here), but developers can only guess about inner math, using the params. Surely not all imaginable parameters of model are avail to direct manipulation, most are determined by those, which are avail. How does this determination look? - iEntertainment knows, so we can guess and try, guess and try...
    The only way for this guess is to think, how one parameter connected with another in real and hope, that warbirds calculations are not far from it.
    Add to this a mass of myths about warbirds engine and real planes, comeing from previous developers team and u get very twisted picture :).
    I often disagree with fas, but his work in research of this crazy situation is really amazing, so i just try to help him with physics and math as i can. Data u post is very interesting and useful, developers are care (and i help them with it :) ) It just takes really much time to compare great amount of different data, that often tells opposite things, to any accomplished picture and implement it in FH.

    PS. i remember someone posted a comparison of P-47C and 190 (A5?) with recomendations in conclusion, if anyone has it close, could u give the link to it?
     
  10. demian

    demian Well-Known Member

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    This is what i am affraid of. I see many pilots during the day , mostly russian ones, who either dont like Turks, or dont like golds at all, but are not especially skillful . I am affraid what will happen to a game with so many good red planes and so many bad red pilots. (nothing against russians pls)

    Funtom is right , PVo is mean machine. I had few test fights with Joseh in ta, then with Mumble, i used g2 they used PVO. I could beat them in dogfight only if I used everything I know, and by using E turns. It turns almost inside of 109 g2. I dont know comparison against ki43, but will be interesting to check, because Gandhi and i discovered ki43 is not quite what it says on sticker:cool:

    We all agreed that Fas and Exec and all other ppl who work on fh now , are doing great job.
    I am just concerned about resemblence of main arena with eastern front , about all those rus planes, mb new ones in the future, im concerned that golds wont enjoy playing anymore.It is not just about now, it is some trend on fh where planes become lighter and lighter, guns getting bigger and bigger, players get more stupid with every day.I am saying this as red player, who wants to be able to fight against golds , knowing that we both have 50-50 chances to win .I dont want to see rude red bad pilots flying without any problem any plane, while golds responding in anger.
     
  11. demian

    demian Well-Known Member

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  12. mumble

    mumble Well-Known Member

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  13. gil---

    gil--- FH Beta Tester

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    I tried PVO with as-, vs spit9c. In flat sustained turn yak could go with spit, but when spit used tight vertical meneuvers, it looked better and easier in handling than yak.
    As for me i have more questions to it's climb and acceleration. Even if we assume that its nice clean body could make 535 kmh sea level with just 1180h.p. It still can't come too close to 109g2 or ki-44 in anything, determined by power/mass.
     
  14. demian

    demian Well-Known Member

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    Gil, check out Gandhis test in "stall speed" thread.
    Btw, you didnt even see link? Respond so we know if that was what you looked for.
     
  15. gil---

    gil--- FH Beta Tester

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    lol, no :), i just don't want fas be too cruel with P-47 though he doesn't like heavy planes, so demian's link will work better.

    But it's also not exactly what i was looking for, there was something about P-47's good energy manage in series of up and dwn maneuvers. ...

    oh, here it is, but without source... http://forum.wbfree.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21755

    aha, seem from here "P47 Thunderbolt at War
    William N Hess"
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2010
  16. looseleaf

    looseleaf Well-Known Member

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  17. demian

    demian Well-Known Member

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    For my own pleasure and info, I ran some speed test low level for yaks.
    I did this with 100% fuel , at about 100-120 m, first with wep until max speed is reached, then without it. I got following results in TAS:

    plane wep no wep

    yak1- 486 470

    yak7b- 521 498

    yak11- 535 513

    pvo - 535 513

    yak9D- 529 508

    yak9T- 529 507

    yak3- 564 540

    To get better picture, i ran same test for 109 g2 , g6:

    plane wep no wep
    g2 532 509
    g6 549 528

    Low alt was interesting for me because of nature of gameplay , and because most of planes can anyway outdive yak if higher.
    I must admit , I actually like new yak 111, I still dont understand why we need light version PVO, but this basic yak 111 feels nice ...And being just 3km faster than 109 g2 is not so bad for gameplay IMHO.Anyway g6 is out in 03 1943 , and is faster..:)
     
  18. Funtom

    Funtom Well-Known Member

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    Is normal that Yak (imo PVO but i am not sure) is better than 190a6 light in highspeed maneuvering? I fought yesterday with geny around f26, we started high (4.5km) and finished at sealvl (nobody won, more golds and reds came), but i could not follow his maneuvers at highspeed (500-700 TAS), he did EVERYTHING sharper and faster than me. I don't think that this is because of my bad tnb flying nor mouse, just a6 elev is worse.
    I thought that 190s are great highspeed planes and only usaaf planes are on the same level...
     
  19. demian

    demian Well-Known Member

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    Dunno Funton, but i believe what you say , cause i know ur not at all bad in tnb, or e fight , as u might think.
    Need to wait russian response to that ...
    What i can tell you is that i flew yak ser 111 basic, against mumble in P38F.
    Mb I had more fuel , but it was for sure difficult fight. I mean real dogfight , tight one.In the end i won only because i extended and climbed away where he couldnt reach me.So i dont count that as victory in df at all. I like that basic thing. But as for light version....dunno.Couldnt match g2 in climb, could match it in turn, but not quite in vertical.As for those high speed fights, mb all yaks are little too good at higher speed. When i tried version 9 , it was scary how much that plane is good..I wont even talk about yak3 :D
    Irony is , that for these few days since i started flying yak , I had more problems at lower speed, than at higher. With low speed, tight turining, my yak ( usually 7b) eventually does a snap roll to other direction , like some planes did in good old times...I cant force myself to fly light pvo in arena , but i hope i will fly today basic 111 and get some more impressions...(hard for me since i fall in love with 7b due to that snap roll:D )
     
  20. fas---

    fas--- Дремучий патриархал

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    Русская версия ниже.

    The whole difference Yak-1 111 and Yakovlev Yak-1PVO - a set of weapons. No other differences, flight model is absolutely identical.
    But due to the fact that this aircraft mass of arms and ammunition comes into play - particularly in the climb, the savings in weight gun BS (22 kilograms), mass of ammunition (200 pieces to 150 grams - 30 kilograms) and 35 shells to the gun ShVAK (7 kilograms), so even if you do not fill a full tank ... makes the Yak-1PVO tool for aces - a lightweight, malozhivuchy plane with paltry ammunition for a single 20mm cannon.

    The plane does not take a single slot. He does not have any obvious abnormalities, it is clearly inferior to Zero on the horizontal maneuverability and as fast on almost all heights of a Messerschmitt 109, the yak period.

    But on this plane just nice to fly and fight.

    Next. Version of the aircraft with a reduced La ammo so do not have any differences in the flight model - they have less take-off weight, due to the smaller number of rounds. Ie La-5 with 40 bullets in the barrel and 40% of the fuel has a much better chance of winning a Messerschmidt. Only now far he can fly:)

    Вся разница Як-1-111 и Як-1ПВО - в наборе оружия. Других отличий нет, полетная модель абсолютно одинакова.
    Но из-за того, что для этого самолета масса оружия и боеприпасов начинает играть роль - особенно в скороподъемности, то экономия на массе пулемета БС (22 килограмма), массе патронов к нему (200 штук по 150 граммов - 30 килограммов) и 35 снарядов к пушке ШВАК (7 килограммов), да еще если залить не полный бак... делает Як-1ПВО инструментом для асов - это легкий, маложивучий самолет с мизерным боекомплектом для единственной 20мм пушки.

    Самолет не занимает отдельного слота. Он не имеет каких-либо явных отклонений, он однозначно уступает Зеро по горизонтальной маневренности и уступает по скорости практически на всех высотах Мессершмидту 109 одного с этим яком периода.

    Но на этом самолете просто ПРИЯТНО летать и драться.

    Далее. Варианты самолетов Ла с уменьшенным боекомплектом так-же не имеют каких-либо отличий в полетной модели - у них меньше взлетная масса, за счет меньшего количества патронов. Т.е. Ла-5 с 40 патронами на ствол и 40% горючего имеет гораздо больше шансов на победу с мессершмидтом. Только вот далеко он улететь не может :)