Hi Aser, >unreal situations as kills from d4-5 or similars as a common thing. Look at the historic practice: In WW2, some USAAF Mustang units in the European Theatre had their guns set to converge at 300 yards. In other words, their typical firing range was somewhere between 200 and 400 yards, or D2 to D4. "If you got in a correctly ranged burst, it was highly destructive." (Major Riemensnider on the P-51 firing at 300 yards) Well, I've flown the P-51D a lot on Freehost, and if there is any description for the effectiveness of its firepower that would never have come to my mind - this is it. "Highly destructive"? No way! Sorry, I don't buy the "Fill your windscreen with the enemy" tale no matter how often it's repeated. If that would have been the way to kill the enemy, the USAAF would have set their convergence to 30 yards, not to 300. They chose 300 yards simply because it was in the middle of their effective range, and I'd really like to see Freehost dispersion changed back to a realistic value to accurately reflect the historic practice. Regards, Henning (HoHun)
Actually, he hit u about 90x.50, but now bullets are set 1 : 1, not as it was 3 : 1 (AFAIR) for .50 So it's not a problem with dispersion settings, but with hits counts. Unless ROF and mags capacity are set to appropriate levels, data from present days is unreliable (2-5 x lower than it should be)
Thanks for the reminder. I should have remembered after reading all these postings. Anyway I think I should have been downed... Maybe I was just lucky
I -would- describe it as such. Compared to a Spit 1, P-40B or MC202, 6x12.7mm HMGs are viciously powerful. I've gotten many kills with the loadout (although more in F4Us, as I fly them more than P51s...same thing though) with short bursts, and 300 yards is no problem even with this dispersion. I'll take my Corsair's guns over any Bf-109 any day. Now sure, they're not as immediately lethal as, say, four 20mm cannon are...but um...they're not supposed to be
Hi Mekh, >Now sure, they're not as immediately lethal as, say, four 20mm cannon are...but um...they're not supposed to be Well, the current lack of effectiveness of the 0.50" guns - and I include the P-47's eight gun battery - might be an artifact of the different gunnery modelling in the recent days. However, the point is: The USAAF units typical effective firing distance was D2 to D4 in real life. You claim that with the new dispersion setting, you consider D1 to D2 effective - well, that's pretty much the proof that dispersion is way overdone on Freehost now and has to be turned back to restore historical realism. Regards, Henning (HoHun)
I said I considered D1-D2 average for 20mm planes. especially the 109. I believe I explicitly mentioned I haven't flown a Red TOD since these changes I doubt they'll be affected as much as the 20mm aicraft simply by virtue of weight of fire. I haven't seen a whole lot of difference with them offline. Considering all the fighter kills I got at D4 and D5 with 6x12mm before, cutting back the effective hitting range on them is not a bad thing at all. As for 'current lack of effectiveness', that's probably due to the current testing for 1:1 modeling. If each MG ping is only being evaluated as one bullet instead of the two or three its ROF was made for, then it's losing a much greater percentage of its effectiveness than any of the cannons are. I certainly never had any complaints about the hitting power of 6x12mm. If anything, they're too good.
Hi, mekh. Not because it's harder. Because it RANDOM. Skill plays no role. Luck is what decides kill or no. I'll give you an example. I was approaching yak from below in 190 with convergence set to 1.8. I aimed in front of his nose to take out the engine with short burst. at d2 i pressed trigger for 1/3 of second. As result i saw both his aerlons fly off. Yeah...nice. 200m and aiming makes no sense.
Look at first attack in guncam i posted. FW190 shoots b17 from HO (almost 1000km speed difference) 1/2 second burst directly in the cockpit. Do you know many FH pilots able to do that? How about many pilots in ww2 who shot pilot of opposing plane with aimed burst of machineguns?
summa summarum (for me): when did you guys saw me online in wb since the new gunnery model was introduced? yepp, exactly 3 times. i dont wanna have some real-life / wb - comparison i just wanna have fun (no, my dear cindy lauper, not only girls want fun ) i have checked the german wb-forum and all posts mentioned the same: the gunnery is ***** for me: i will avoid wb ... testing others (IL-2, AH). it was a good time at fh....it was cuuuuuiiiiii in better times
I get new power to my comp...i hope it solves problems with my GF2 so I can play AH again. So that everyone has what they want. AH ballistics are quite good. But I have to say i hate their icons. It's those icons which make gunnery totally unrealistically easy.
Hi Mekh, >I said I considered D1-D2 average for 20mm planes. especially the 109. Even armed with the low-velocity MG FF, the Me 109 was harmonized to 200 m (D2.2), with the nose-mounted guns sighted to 400 m (D4.4). The Fw 190A with the more powerful MG151/20 cannon in the wings at the nose-mounted guns sighted to 400 m, too, and the cannon to 550 m (D6). Quite obviously, firing ranges beyond 200 m were quite common in WW2. Even if the best results were achieved by "filling the windscreen with the target", even average pilots were expected to hit targets much farther out than 200 m. >I certainly never had any complaints about the hitting power of 6x12mm. If anything, they're too good. I had no complaints about the hitting power of the12.7 mm guns before the dispersion change. Right now, the P-51D's 6 x 0.50" battery is worthless - I've attacked 34 air targets with it, hitting 27 of them. In 25 cases, I did no appreciable damage at all, in 2 cases, I managed to inflict an oil or fuel leak. (In both cases Japanese fighters.) Regards, Henning (HoHun)
Consequence of this "gunnery" for me is that I play now 2 week trial AH. I enjoyed it now for 2 days and I really like it. Call me if gun dispersion is changed back to realistic and maybe I will come back.
@HoHun You can have a look at the thread "Real Life Gun Camera Footage" by ironmn. It is a link to a web where you can get a film about German pilots getting kills against US/Russian planes. http://81.19.238.131/demo/ You can check that all these kills are made from 50m to 200m (d0,5-d2 at Wb aprox). Yes, the bullets flight is straigther than at Wb, but as you can see, it was not easy to get a kill.
I used to play AH MA and it was great (still flying h8h sometimes). But i hate these icons too and the idea of having all sides same planes. All others games MA mentalities sux BIG time thats why i love the FH MA. The only reason that could make me go to play AH/WB is the scenarios. But for me its prices isnt worth yet to fly at least only at weekends historical events. BUT, if the gunnery is not set back to "reality" i will leave WB FH too. Gonna play QuakeBirds In Action, a new game by Quakehappiness Microwarps Inc. If you are..., i said IF you are quakepilot and want to try this game. Clickhere
Hi Aser, >You can check that all these kills are made from 50m to 200m (d0,5-d2 at Wb aprox). So what? The convergence settings used by the real air forces in the real world war show which firing ranges dominated the fight. That starts at D2.2 for the low-velocity MG FF, goes to D3 for the 0.50" Browning, D4.4 for the nose-mounted MG17 and MG131, and to D6 for the 20 mm MG151/20. And these distances are not the extreme range, but the middle of the effective range! Of course it was nice if you could get any closer, but in real life, you didn't always need to (or could be expected to - getting close isn't always easy). Regards, Henning (HoHun)
Hi Haupt, >BUT, if the gunnery is not set back to "reality" i will leave WB FH too. Your view of "reality" seems to be based on the romantic image of the knight of the sky who has to close to bayonet range to kill his adversary. That's ridiculous - the USAAF used convergence settings of 300 yards, meaning they fired from something like 200 to 400 yards routinely. Regards, Henning (HoHun)
At first: Iam totally agree with HoHun! Ok lets talk about WB FH not real live: I use exclusive the 109. From E4 to G10. I NEVER! shoot at longer distances as d2! And im a Boom&Zoom Fighter. So if i dive from above and get closer to the lower target, i open fire at d2 take a short burst during i get much closer and then i climb away (is this boom&zoom? I think so!) - in the old version it was a kill (or at least a hvy pinged con). And now? The 20mm (dont forget i have only one!) is sprinkling around the target! I fire now looong burst (20-30% of ammunition) and what i get is maybe sometimes a lost airlon or so! I dont want kills from d3 or d4 (if it is possible -o.k.) but i want kills from d2 like in the old FH Version! Sometimes i fire at d1.8 and i canot hit the target deadly. This is much dangerous because i collide now very often with the target. On the contrary my squadmember get kills from d3 - d4 in KI61 because he fires only in the direction of the con shake the plane a littlebit to and fro and get a pilotkill because the bullets spread around the con and hit perhaps the pilot. Is it that what we want? And for all they use IL-2: Dont orientate on the tracers from the illuminating shells! They have a lower speed and fall faster (like in RL)! Flight at d1.5 take the enemy plane in your revi and fire (a longer burst as in WB thats right - but a much more deadly one) and you will get the kill!
