gunnery and other things

Hi Boroda,

>Again - I look at it from the point of view of a weapon engineer.

Do you mean to suggest mine shells are technically impossible?

Mine shells did exist, they were mass produced, they worked extremely well, and the designers did extensive research on the benefits of blast pressure versus fragment effects.

I have a copy of one report that describes conventional projectiles in every detail just the way you did - all damage caúsed by fragments. However, this reports analyses mine shells as well - and their effect is clearly defined by blast pressure.

If you're interested, I could mail it to you.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

ok let get this right a shell penetrates the already highly stressed
wing of your plane and then explodeds have u ever burst a balloon thats whats its like the fragmentation of the shell is enough to rip a big chunk of metal away .

 

I think everybody knows what is meant!
That its possible to do more damage even through less hits!
But in my eyes its already existant!
I Killed many Planes with just 1 or 2 20mm hits dou they tryed to turn away! I came with much more Speed and the Wing just fell off. I think we have such kind of dmg modell

Anyway, another question is WHY?
Due laggs warps and high pings, you mostly see damage much later, so you fire all the way from d5 to d2, pass the plane look back and then you see the damage. Or a H2H situation, plane passes and the pings come after that. Its not always that way but i realiced it often enough to say: We don´t need such features!!!
Better make the game more balanced or implement new planes, or get the scenarios running real good (like at the nonexistant gm server)...

 

We have people who design and organize scenarios, people who design skins, people who develop planes and people who develop the arena itself.

Each group has their function, and each group gives their best to do a good job.

Let each group do their job and don't discuss scenarios in a gunnery thread.

Sorry for the tone.

 

YEAH, thats very important to discuss a feature which is not necesserry! And, there are some gunnery issues who are more important. But its ok.

 

It's not a feature, it's the gunnery and the damage model itself!!

 

Your specialist and the theory you learned is probably valid for killing tanks and human beings, but not for air targets.

The amount of explosive stored in a mine shell can be neglected?
Man, use your brain! Look:

The amount of explosive in a 30mm mine shell was 72g
The amount of explosive for propulsion was 30g.

So the shell already caries more than twice the power stored in explosvie than stored in kinetic energy.

Furthermore, only a part of the 30g explosive used to accelerate the shell is actually converted into kinetic energy. The ratio of damage changes more and more in favour of the amount of explosive carried in the shell.

And the taks of the shell wasn´t to kill human beings nor to penetrate armor, because there wasn´t an all-around protection of aircrafts.

Even the 20mm mine shell could build up a pressure wave that had still 50bar pressure in 0.3m distance. Imagine how it teared up those thin structural elements of an aircraft. And the skin was a structural part, don´t forget it.
Now take a 30mm mine shell with 3 times the amount of explosive, and imagine what the pressure wave could do....

And if such a shell explodes near a man he´s gonna be dead, because the pressure wave will kill his ears and eyes and probably will do also other "damage"

1 hit in a B17 wing usually brought it down. The statistics made after the war showed that ~5 hits were necessary to bring a bomber down with 100% probabillity (it wasn´t an average value, it was really a value to determine how much hits were necessary to destroy the target in worst case)

The wings and structures of a bomber or also fighter were "empty" at this time, so splitter will do in most case no big damage, except it happens right next to a main spar for example.

But well, if your tests are based on russian data... i bet the result is that russian he ammo was much better suited to bring down a B17 LOL.

niklas

Attachement shows effect of completly useless 30mm mine shell LOL

 

Hi Niklas,

>The amount of explosive in a 30mm mine shell was 72g
>The amount of explosive for propulsion was 30g.

Interesting way to look at it

But to be fair, Boroda's point was that the energy was transferred by fragments and not by blast, so I think there is no direct contradiction from the energy point of view alone.

(Mine shells were different from conventional shells of course in actually relying on blast.)

Thanks for the pictures, by the way! Do you happen to have the Mosquito picture in higher resolution as well? I'd love to have a look at the details.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

Hehe look at this spit: "Rfuselage destroyed" by one shell, now someone whine that 30mm is overmodelled in FH!

But that reminds me too about W/Cdr Desmond Scott who got 2 direct 40mm hits in his Typhoon's wing and he only noticed it over Channel on his way back home because his plane became harder to control
Gunnery in RL was even stranger than one we have on FH

 

I'm starting to think that gunnery IRL is more a random factor than a cientific calculation of mass and velocity... Sometimes 30mm kills, sometimes 40mm don't

 

not that tiffie has good control when its 100% anyway

 

Hi Hohun

My "look" at the problem is a very simple one, on the other hand it can be understood by everyone.

I even forgot that the shell lose quickly speed, so only a part of the explosive is transferred into kinetic energy, and this kinetic energy again drops very quickly with distance. You don´t need to know much about math to understand that kinetic energy isn´t the deciding factor.

The next step is that many compare the energy of the explosive carried in the shell. It´s always funny to read comparisons by people doing simple math like this shell carries x amount of explosive so it´s y times better than this shell.

Unfortunatly it isn´t so simple. It begins that a HE shell needs more energy to tear up the shell structure than a Mine shell with a thin wall. This energy is lost.
Furthermore, once the HE shell broke up at a single point, the pressure can escape there and the pressure isn´t transferred anymore completly into kinetic acceleration of splitter.

The link from butch2k forum is quite interesting, at the end it confimrs what was already written in those 20mm and mine shell reports. Ack shells, usually based on splitter effects (Schrappnell`?), were very useless when exploding a bit offside to the target. The logical consequenc was to use pressure waves, and the R4M was indeed only based on pressure wave effect. When the shot was lucky 2 close flying B17 went down...

I bet if you look at anti-air missles today you can see the same effect, a lot of explosive for pressure waves, thin walls. This way the target can be destroyed even when the missle explodes a bit offside.

A tank would laugh when this missle explodes next to him, an aircraft with the large, flat, thin surfaces doesn´t .....

niklas

 

Hi all

My opnion of pictures of 30mm impact in Moskito & Spit

- this is no exist in WB world... one Hit of 30mm all plane explod !!!

Is my opnion & is actual situation in WB World

Outher case is 20mm of Yak-3...

What is wrong ? i hit 10x20mm in one Fw-190A4 end no shootdonw... outher sortie i hit 3x20mm in one N1K2 end no shootdown again...

This is case is f* , but this is planes ( 190 & N1K2 ) hit one ping of 20mm my yak3 explod ???

The conex is dial-up, but have 600ms~800ms of ping... no have prob with beacon.... oh I have one prob in sunday , i Hit 190 of Fucida, but he speak with my i hit your chute ??? but i shoot in your plane ??? I confuse now

Salute all