I dont know if the OTTO-settings have been modified this RPS but in the last flights I (or better: my ottos) made in my Ju88 an extreme number of fighter kills. Today I was flying at alt 7000 over F12 and the region and was attacked subsequently by three Spitfires. All Spits were shot down and I only lost a landing gear which was no real problem - so I returned save to base. Also - in the role of a fighter - I have seen the accuracy of Li-2 and Pe-2 ottos which were shooting down Zeros and 109´s without any problems. So here my suggestion for a modification: Decrease the accuracy of ottos and make fix setiings which could not be modified by the bomber pilots (like b+ or b++). But also raise the toughness of bombers. I have lost in many flights of the last RPS a Ju88 after only 2 or 3 20mm hits (and these were no pk´s). I also shot down B24´s or B17´s after only very few hits. This is unrealistic. In WW2 many german bombers returned and landed at their bases even after soviet ramming attacks. The B24 and B17 also landed when they were crippled by AA fire or interceptor attacks. Here they all die after a few hits. So again: Make the bombers harder to kill AND decrease the otto abilities. Also please find a solution for the fueltank damage. Most planes - especially the technically advanced german or british planes had self-sealing tanks and often more than one fuel tank. So its not realistic that the plane looses its complete fuel although it has an undamaged fueltank in the other wing or the sealing system.
You guys always find something you don't like or something one or the other historical source will call is wrong... well as a matter of fact, this still is a game, and warbirds doesn't offer the ability to model each and every single possibility, even though there's enough diversion in between the models themselves... if a pilot IRL aims well, and pumps 3 20mm in the engine of a bomber... be sure it will go down, how comes you think that in BoB so many bombers got killed if they had such huge armor platings as you state, then bear in mind that rifle calibre bullets can't penetrate these armor platings if they are so strong as you say, and the result is a very hard to believe historical source... We need, objective, smart, true, and preferably scientifical sources, coz I'm so damn extremely sceptical... You guys will always find another thing, never forget, this game is offered to you for free! greetze, Zembla
I agree with the part of your statement that the game is for free and that this is a very nice thing. But this should not prevent us to suggest improvements. Especially if we consider the actual situation: We have sniper ottos which make kills of fighters with a bomber or even with a para-transporter very easy. On the other hand we have medium and heavy bombers which fall apart like the Hindenburg after few hits. So it should be thought about a modification of these points. An easy solution would be that the ottos get fixed values. Take away the possibility that pilots could modify the settings of the otto. This would solve the problem of the sniper ottos. Then make the bombers tougher and more hard to kill. This would solve problem number 2. I think that these two modifications would give the game more balance. And yes, Zembla.. the game is for free...
Hello Zembla, You are right that we are am not in the position to demand anything, because its a free game (btw. its the best game i ever played). But i think babek did not start flaming He only wrote down his suggestions, what can be done better and imho this is what we need. We need people, who have the right ideas to improve the game. If the developers agree with that, very good, if not its o.k., too cu Flubby BTW: The discussion about this sniper-like ottos is very old and imho there is no solution for the problem. (And it is of course a problem for most of us )
Hi Babek, Flying He 177, Il-4 and TBF, my otto scored around 25% hits in the long term average. With the He 177, I killed as many fighters as I lost bombers, with the Il-4 and TBF, I've killed more than I lost. Regards, Henning (HoHun)
Hi guys, Zembla, I think it is a cool game, and greatly, it is for free. Of course, we're not in position of demanding, but we can make suggestions, even if they are gonna be disregarded or adopted. Babek's suggestions are fairly acceptable IMHO, since AFAIK, it doesn't requires coding, only admin settings. Otto settings can be restricted by admins for online usage, I read it in a txt file that came with WB (or FHL, can't remember). I'm at my University, so I don't have the files handy, sorry. Buff thoughness (buff-tuff) also can be increased by this way. The admin(s) type the command which will increase or decrease the buff-tuff. Its multiplier allows 10x stronger bombers. That way iEN has worked in some scenarios. Also, there's an explanation and the command in one of those .txt files in WB directory. So, I'd suggest the same as babek: decrease ottos drastically, but make the bombers much more stronger. If not well-aimed (on pilot, stabs) it will be a cannon fodder, eating all your ammo and still flying. That's it.. IMO.
Now I just arrived at home and was able to look thru the txt files in WB directory.. here it is: 1- For the überotto settings: Copy'n'paste from newotto.txt: "Host Settings To change a setting (CMs/Trainers only) ".sset [param] [value]" OTTO_OVERRIDES 0 - 511 This determines which of the above settings the player can override while online. Each parameter is turned on (made overrideable by the player) by the values below. To turn on multiple parameters, add them together 1 OTTO_ACCURACY 2 OTTO_RANGE 8 OTTO_BURSTON_BASE 16 OTTO_BURSTON_MAX 32 OTTO_BURSTOFF_BASE 128 OTTO_RETARGET_TIME Here are some useful values: 0 Prohibits the player from overriding any otto setting while online 511 Allows the player to override all otto parameters 58 Allows the player to override the OTTO_RANGE,0TTO_BURSTON_BASE,OTTO_BURSTON_MAX, OTTO_BURSTOFF_BASE parameters 186 Adds OTTO_RETARGET_TIME to above overrides 2- Now for buff-tuff, from the same newotto.txt: BUFF_HARDNESS_MULT 1 - 10 This is a multiplier for buff hardness. Setting it greater than 1 will increase buff hardness, allowing bombers to take more damage. ***NOTE*** You must do a .save and a .load immediately after setting this value, or it will not take effect!
I agree with babek- and rafael´s idea. Such modifications could be made easily and would change the bombers of FH into a more realistic and interesting role. Today we can shoot down at FH a B17 with only a few hits. But if I remember correctly that plane had the name "Flying Fortress" and was a nightmare for the german pilots who had to hit it very often to kill it. So I agree totally with the idea to stop uber-otto and to bring in buff-hardness. The only buff which shouldnt be made much harder is the Betty - this plane was reknown for falling apart after a few hits. But planes like B17, Ju88 or B25 should be made much more stable when at the same time their ottos accuracy are reduced.
In WWII the Germans counted that it took an average of 20 x 20mm or 6 x 30mm to down a "viermot" a 4-engined bomber. On the other hand during one interception the Germans lost 12 planes and 6 pilots were killed. The bombers and their escorts claimed 78, yes 78 kills! (how-it-was) <S> hemuli Buff-Tuff 1, tolerable OTTO => TEAMWORK!
Concerning bombers, I think it's a good idea to decrease otto accuracy, and increasing bomber toughness will surely help bombers (the other day I was killed in IL-4 by the otto of a 110 ). But we need also to reduce Norden sight accuracy, for that I think it would be a great solution what Rafael posted some time ago, to close a field we wouldn't need to destroy every target there, but to bomb a certain area with an amount of Kg-bombs, I think he said something like 15000kg of bombs in the field area for a big field, of course, within a time (10 minutes? 20??). Anybody seems to love bombers the way they are now, so what if we had: 1.-Reduced otto accuracy 2.-Increased toughness 3.-Reduced Norden sight Accuracy (take away zoom, make boms deviation...) 4.-Make it easier for "carpet bombing" (rafael's idea) That way we would have not only more historical bombers, but also solve some problems we have now. Of course, those are only ideas, I am more than gratefull for this Free game.
Well I haven't taken a stance yet, I just flamed, reason for that is I'm pissed of at school which recently restarted, yeah I can hear you mumblin : "Lame!" Oh well... sorry for my awkward inapropriate behavior... I'm only human... greetze, Zembla
babek only writes the conclusions of previous otto flames. i agree with him. increase hardness and decrease otto aim.
Thats one of the reasons for this discussion. At the moment I can go up in a Ju88 and be sure that I kill at least 2 red interceptors in 3 Ju88-flights. Its no problem to put the OTTO-settings in the way that the Otto fires long bursts on incoming fighters. When he hits the burst will be prolonged by 100%. So - with 25% hit ratio - OTTO will be able to cripple or kill enemy fighters easily - especially those who aimed not good enough to kill the Ju88 in a fast way. Also as a buffer I have laser-guided optical bombs and the risk that 2 20mm hits of a red interceptor kill my Ju88. I can live with the actual situation - but how the following suggestions would be ? 1. UBER OTTO Reduction of the otto effectiveness - this will give interceptors a higher survival rate. 2. BUFF TUFF By raising the toughness of the bomber the plane will be more stable and capable to fly even after many hits. So more interceptors are needed to kill a buff or they have to shoot longer at them. This would give escort fighters a more realistic role. Today a buff will be lost after few hits - but when its tougher there will be real air battles between the escorts and the interceptors and in the middle of this all the buffs who try to reach their targets. 3. LASER GUIDED BOMBS With the Norden-bombsights and without deviation its more than easy for a trained buff pilot to get a 100% or even higher bombhit-ratio. CV´s are sunk by precise dropped level bombs - which is absolutely unrealistic. Why should anyone take a Stuka or a D3A when he can sink a Cv with a Ju88 or G4M and their precise bombsights ? rafaels carpetbombing idea is great. This would give the levelbombers their historical role. And the Ju88´s would be put into a position where they have to make diveattacks in order to hit with their bombs precisely (that was thereason why this medium bomber had its divebrakes). I think that with these modifications I would enjoy my operations as a bomberpilot more than today (and I enjoy them today in a high level, but this should not prevent a discussion to get eben a higher one). A KG51 Ju88 formation, otw to a carpetbombing raid, - escorted with 109´s of AFVS - and then a great air battle near and over the target area.... When this would happen - I think I would have reached the virtual WB/FH-paradise
I'm with you and mostly, your last sentence babek. If goals accomplished, this will be the paradise! Hey, VF-1 can escort also.. last SN: I Gruppe, led by me took 109Ks and escorted III. Gruppe 's 177 since takeoff, this task took 1,5 hours and was fine. Where was the II Gruppe? They were the decoys.
Anyone seen the link to the Bomber site that had loads of pictures of damaged bombers that made it back to base with most of them missing? I'll have a look myself tonight and see if I can find it which will help validate Babek's statements on buff hardness. One interesting thing about that site is that it points out that a large percentage of individual (human) deaths in mass buff raids and indeed a small percentage of actual buff kills was caused by planes being hit by bombs and not fighters (They had some awesome shots of B17's with the fronts missing where they were to close to the buff infront and above and got hit by falling bombs) In summary, I agree with Babek. Malino
Here is a good link, afaik is the best that i know. http://www.daveswarbirds.com/B-17/contents.htm Unfortunately i tried again to take a look and got an error message. Sorry, couldnt help....
I am also looking for pictures of bombers which have survived severe hits. At this point I just have started my research - so I have only pictures of B17 which could be seen at: http://members.tripod.com/kg51edelweiss/id254.htm All these B17 landed. After looking at this pictures it becomes more and more unrealistic that 2x20mm hits are normally enough to destroy a medium or heavy bomber. So again: Think about the idea to make buffs tougher and reduce their otto abilities.
