109 F4 G2 vs Spitfire mk IX some maths.

Discussion in 'Warbirds International' started by -kopi-, Apr 24, 2006.

  1. -kopi-

    -kopi- Well-Known Member

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    http://mitglied.lycos.de/luftwaffe1/Carson/Carson.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_force

    L=Cl*ro*A*V^2/2

    109f4(Clmax 1.48) spit 9 (Clmax 1,22).
    Lift force at speed 270km/h
    109f4- 81585 N spit9-86436 N
    Weight
    109f4-2746kg Spit9-3380kg
    Weight/Lift
    109f4-0,34 Spit9-0,39
    Lift force at 80 degrees(beta) bank angle = Lift force* sin (beta)- Lfn
    109-79953 N Spit-84707 N

    an=V^2/R

    an- centripetal acceleration

    an=Lfn/m

    m-weight

    R=V^2/an=m/0,5*ro*A*Clmax*sin(beta)

    Radius of turn at 270 km/h
    109-193m Spit-224m

    V=S/T S-path T- time V - velocity

    T=S/V
    S=2*pi*R
    V=270km/h=75m/s

    Time of turn
    109-16,2 s Spit 18,8 s

    Conclusion:
    109 has lower lift loading which is better for truning. Wing loading dont give us the whole picture.
    109 F4 and early G2 could turn with a spitfire mk9. I doubt that it was better but for sure they where equal like it is in most simulations but not in this one.

    SO FIX THE GOD DAMN SPITFIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  2. Red Ant

    Red Ant Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and fix the damn 109F as well while you're at. 109E is fine, but F2/F4 roll and turn too well at low speeds IMO. I do agree that Spits are even more uber, tho.
     
  3. PressLuftHammer

    PressLuftHammer FH Beta Tester

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    lol -kopi- don't worry be happy :)

    We have real data NII VVS for 109G-2 and SpitIX LF (Merlin-66)
    Turn sustained at alt 1000m
    109G-2 time 20 sec radius 290m speed TAS=328kmph
    Spit IX LF time 17,5 sec radius 235m TAS=305kmpp
    for example too test NII VVS
    Fw.190A-4 time 22,5 sec radius 340m
    Bf.109G-2/R6 time 22,5 sec radius 315m

    You can read this too http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html

    We can calculate SpitIX LF Cl=1,18 Bf.109G-2 Cl=1,23

    For 109E-4 and Spit I we have British test
    alt=12.000ft(3600m)
    can see here http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit109turn18.gif
    Spit I time 19 sec radius 212m
    Bf.109E-4 time 25 sec radius 270m

    P.S.
    Real 109G-2 don have speed 535kmph at S.L. as in FH
    Germany test 525kmph Soviet test captured 109G-2 524 kmph at S.L
    both at boost 1,3 ata (Kampfleistung 30min 1310 PS) boost 1,42 ata (Notleistung 1min 1425 PS) dont use to 1944.

    P.S.
    Turn 109G-2 now in FH not real time is equal real but radius smalles 269 m in FH vs 290m in real life.
    SpitIX 225m in FH and 235m in real life.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2006
  4. fatale

    fatale Well-Known Member

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    Mb the main problem- VVS data? (sry, nothing against :) ) What about RAF/USAF/LW data?
     
  5. PressLuftHammer

    PressLuftHammer FH Beta Tester

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    about 109G-6/U2 vs Spit IX only British tactical test
    http://www.spitfireperformance.com/109gtac.html

    Turning circle
    20.........The manoeuvrability of the Spitfire IX in this respect is greatly superior to that of the Me.109 and it easily out-turns the Me.109 in either direction at all speeds.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2006
  6. fatale

    fatale Well-Known Member

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    This is for 109G6, not G2
     
  7. PressLuftHammer

    PressLuftHammer FH Beta Tester

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    109G6 have weigth bigest about 100kg i guess its not many change in this test
     
  8. -kopi-

    -kopi- Well-Known Member

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    Pls put those british reports into fary tailes and use messershmit fabric data ok?
    Why do you always state captured planes and not those that come from factory huh?

    25 s for emil is with slats closed. Emil could turn with spit becuse of better lift loading. Check that link i posted.

    Again that british report is right about spitfire mk9 outturning a 109g6 u2. But for crist sakes say that this 109 g6 u2 had 2 mg 151 in gondloas and that added 250 kg of weight !!! So weight wasnt 3156kg but 3400 kg

    http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/610100553
    according to Krufust higher boost on 109 f4 1.42 ata was used in the first months of 1942
    Our 109 g2 here goes 535km/h on deck and yes it is to high for april 1942.It should have that speed in mid 1943.

    So this http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html is bullshit and this http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html is bullshit becouse it compares not a normal 109 but the one with gondolas.



    Merlin 66 power is with 100 octane fuel 1705 hp 18 lb/sq boost and 2000 hp 25 lb/sq boost with 150 octane fuel. Now is it right to use this engine for a 1942 Spit mkIX c? My guess it was used no sooner then 1944 and thats our spit mk IX LF and im not complaning about this version.

    So if you are happy when game model planes using some propaganda reports then fine but im not happy with it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2006
  9. fatale

    fatale Well-Known Member

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    or without gondolas but with MK108 (~60kg) ....
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2006
  10. -kopi-

    -kopi- Well-Known Member

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  11. fatale

    fatale Well-Known Member

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    ah, sry, U2 was with 2x MG151/20 or 2x MK108 in gondolas...
     
  12. -exec-

    -exec- FH Consultant

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    isn't it /r4 with mk108?
     
  13. fatale

    fatale Well-Known Member

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    G-6/R4:
    heavy fighter - one additional 30 mm MK 108 in a gondola below each wing, also GM-1-injection

    G-6/R6:
    heavy fighter - one additional MG 151/20 in a gondola below each wing, also GM-1-injection

    G-6/U2:
    heavy fighter - changed tail-fin made of wood, armament like G-6/R4 or /R6

    G-6/U4:
    fighter - similar to G-6/U2 but retractable tail-gear
     
  14. RolandGarros

    RolandGarros Well-Known Member

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    "according to kurfurst" lololololololololololololololol
     
  15. -kopi-

    -kopi- Well-Known Member

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    I read his posts on many forums and his data seems acurate.
     
  16. bizerk

    bizerk Well-Known Member

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    109f-3 wingloading 35lb/sq ft
    I-16 type 27 wingloading 26lb/sq ft
    Mig-3 WL 39lb/sq ft
    Lagg-3 WL 37lb/sq ft
    Yak-1 WL 34lb/sq ft
    109E-3 WL 32lb/sq ft
    110C-4 Wl 36lb/sq ft
    Spit I WL 24 lb/sq ft
    Hurr I WL 26lb/sq ft
    MS406 WL 33lb/sq ft
    Curtiss Hawk WL 24lb/sq ft
    Dewoitine D.520 WL 34lb/ sq ft
    Me 262 WL 60lb/ sq ft
    La-5FN WL 39lb/sq ft
    Yak-9 WL 36lb sq ft
    Yak-3 WL 37lb/ sq ft
    FW190D-9 WL 48lb/sq ft
    Spit XIV WL 35 lb/ sq ft
    Tempest V WL 38lb/sq ft
    Ju-88G-6 WL 49lb/ sq ft (nightfighter)
    P-47D WL 49 lb/sq ft
    P-38L WL 53 lb/sq ft
    P-51D WL 43lb/sq ft
    109G-6 WL 40 lb/sq ft
    FW 190A-8 WL 49 lb/sq ft
    Me 410A-2 WL 60lb/sq ft
    110G-4 WL 50lb/sq ft
    Ju-88C-6c WL 46lb/sq ft
    P-40 Tomahawk II WL 32lb/ sq ft
    P-40 Kittyhawk III WL 36lb/sq ft
    Fw190A-3 WL 39lb/sq ft
    Spit VB WL 28lb/sq ft
    Spit IX WL 31lb/sq ft

    This info taken from the book "Luftwaffe Fighter Aces, the jagdflieger and thier combat tactics and techniques" by Mike Spick ISBN 1-85367-255-6
    wingloading is only part of the equation. My suggestion if you want better turning 109's then have those slots kick in and make your plane pop up or down accordingly eh?
     
  17. fatale

    fatale Well-Known Member

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    Can u find Typhoon, pls? I don't know if u know it, but we have very uber Tyffie here :)
     
  18. RolandGarros

    RolandGarros Well-Known Member

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    you believe him lololololololololololololololol
     
  19. fatale

    fatale Well-Known Member

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    cc, i prefer Bullet in face of Roland G. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2006
  20. -frog-

    -frog- Well-Known Member

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    Kopi's aerodynamic equations are far more convincing than FH's team (PLH there) replies... but fuck that... LaGG has won the war, with the spit IX as almost equal counterpart...

    the FH has come so low in th recent releases that I'm not more bound to fly it... sorry