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Discussion in 'Warbirds International' started by Funtom, Jul 1, 2010.

  1. joseh-

    joseh- Well-Known Member

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    Roger that, sir! :cool:

    And I really think G.55 is worthy :p
    But if you give it to reds, it is worthless :rolleyes:

    IMO I think that P-63 would be also good, just little mods in P-39 frame, plus new FM. About goldies, I don't see any plane that would be great add by now, perhaps if IL-2I is 'experimental', why don't add the 'experimental' jet bomber Ar.234 Blitz? %)
     
  2. looseleaf

    looseleaf Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the Ar 234 would be a great late war addition. Also it would "fun" to see late war reds and golds have the G.55 and C205 at the same time.

    However in terms of historical precedents the P-63 should take priority.

    There were over 2,500 P-63s used by the Russians, as per agreement mostly in the Pacific, yet there were many accounts of European engagements.
    P-63 was not just a modified P-61 but a whole new aircraft with no common parts and also was designed with Russian technical assistance/input. It was not solely an American design, it was a joint effort.

    From Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-63_Kingcobra :

    In September 1942, even before the prototype flew, the USAAF ordered it into production as the P-63A (Model 33). The P-63A's armament was to be the same as that of the then-current P-39Q, a single 37 mm (1.46 in) M4 cannon firing through the propeller hub, two .50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns in the upper nose firing through the prop, and two .50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns in underwing gondolas. The trajectory of the .50 in guns was far flatter than that of the cannon.

    The first prototype, 41-19511, flew for the first time on 7 December 1942. It was destroyed on 28 January 1943 when its landing gear failed to extend. The second prototype, 41-19512, followed on 5 February 1943. It too was destroyed, this time due to an engine failure. The Merlin-engined 42-78015 was later delivered with another Allison instead, as the Merlins were primarily needed for the P-51 Mustang. Nevertheless the new -93 version of the Allison had a war emergency rating of 1,500 hp (1,100 kW) at sea level, making this prototype one of the fastest Kingcobras built, attaining 421 mph (678 km/h) at 24,100 ft (7,300 m).

    Deliveries of production P-63As began in October 1943. The USAAF concluded the Kingcobra was inferior to the Mustang, and declined to order larger quantities. American allies, particularly the Soviet Union, had a great need for fighter aircraft, however, and the Soviets were already the largest users of the Airacobra. Therefore, the Kingcobra was ordered into production to be delivered under Lend-Lease. In February 1944, the Soviet government sent a highly experienced test pilot, Andrey G. Kochetkov, and an aviation engineer, Fyodor P. Suprun, to the Bell factories to participate in the development of the first production variant, the P-63A. Initially ignored by Bell engineers, Kochetkov's expert testing of the machine's spin characteristics (which led to airframe buckling) eventually led to a significant Soviet role in the development. After flat spin recovery proved impossible, and upon Kochetkov's making a final recommendation that pilots should bail out upon entering such a spin, he received a commendation from the Irving Parachute Company. The Kingcobra’s maximum aft CG was moved ahead to facilitate recovery from spins.[3]

    P-63A-8, SN 269261, was extensively tested at TsAGI in what was then the world's largest wind tunnel. Soviet input was significant. With the Soviet Union being the largest buyer of the aircraft, Bell was quick to implement their suggestions. The vast majority of the changes in the A sub-variants were a direct result of Soviet input, e.g. increased pilot armor and fuselage hardpoint on the A-5, underwing hardpoints and extra fuel tanks on the A-6, etc. The Soviet Union even experimented with ski landing gear for the P-63A-6, but this never reached production. Most significantly, Soviet input resulted in moving the main cannon forward, favorably changing the center of gravity, and increasing its ammo load from 30 to 58 rounds for the A-9 variant. The P-63 had an impressive roll rate, besting the P-47, P-40, N1K2 and P-51 with a rate of 110° per second at 275 mph (443 km/h).[4]

    [4] ^ Dean, 1997, pp. 410, 602



    sorry to lay it down heavy again, but I am really passionate about the historical significance of this plane.
    :cheers:
     
  3. -exec-

    -exec- FH Consultant

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    hmm?
    1943-09 for both sides?

    no mentions found about military use :)

    as a weapon load of which aeroplane?
     
  4. -exec-

    -exec- FH Consultant

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    740km/h? what's the use in on-line game when isolating from other players?!

    we will think what shall we do

    that's interesting
     
  5. tazman88

    tazman88 Well-Known Member

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    IMHO hispano damage model should be dropped
     
  6. joseh-

    joseh- Well-Known Member

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    Same case with Me-262, it would be great to have, but not significant in the very last days...

    Yeah, that would be REAL funny to see :kruto:

    And I'm really in onto that P-63 thingie, it would be real nice, altough -exec- said that there's no fight reports :(

    [+1] Fi-156 w/ 1 paratrooper :super:
     
  7. looseleaf

    looseleaf Well-Known Member

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    Fi-156 ? too much work for too little plane IMHO, but fun though. good spy hack

    Maybe a late war scenario with 262, Ar234, G55/C205 ?

    I would also like to see float planes in Pacific or big Med maps

    maybe a CAnt Z506 ? and PBY ? torpedo and troops.

    Ah, the wish lists.......

    Maybe FHWB should distribute a plane building software kit and the membership could provide graphics and FM for admin approval?
     
  8. allpay

    allpay Well-Known Member

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  9. -ALW-

    -ALW- Well-Known Member

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    Here is some other interesting info on the From the P-39 failure to the Bell P-63 Kingcobra from http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/ Lots of reading but, interesting facts and performance information.
     
  10. looseleaf

    looseleaf Well-Known Member

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    Interesting article,thanks.

    One does wonder "what if"....

    Had the P-63 used the same engine of the P-38 what would the resulting performance have been.

    I'm surprised that Bell did not talk with the USAAF and War Department about getting the Allison engine of the P-38 (Allison V-1710-111/113, 1,725 hp) and arguing the fact that they would have double the airplanes using single engine fighters and no reverse engine maintenance and parts.

    Of course that would mean less P-38s :(


    Rumors were that American pilots really did not like the low polar moment of inertia handling of the mid engine lay-out provided. Russian pilot enthusiasm as printed in books overcame the "nervousness" of the planes handling. In fact it complimented their flying style.

    The sad part is that the contribution the P-39 and P-63 had been down-played by the Russians during and after the war and it seems also by the Americans ! I do believe there was FAR more air to air combat by the Russian P-39/P-63 than everyone states.

    Russian pilot enthusiasm story about lend leased P-40s:

    In the terrible winter it was very difficult to get aircraft in the air because of super cold engines.
    One group of P-40 guys would just take large drums of gasoline/(diesel?),place it under the engine and light-up the fuel.

    They said: the planes that did not catch fire, would start... :D
     
  11. looseleaf

    looseleaf Well-Known Member

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    Well.... if there are V-1 being used still the Ar234 could be the manned vesion of fast bomber. Not sure of the range.

    I suppose a fast interceptor would be in order, perhaps a fast version of the Mossie?

    I remember reading somewhere (it will take a while to find) about the expliots of the Ar 234 pilots,those few missions performed;

    He stated that the only thing in the air with him at speed or near speed was the Mossie, maybe it was a photo-recon Mossie, can't remember, only that the two pilots did not fire at each other but each one was in amazement.

    Thanks
     
  12. -exec-

    -exec- FH Consultant

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    i believe that arm race of 1945-1946 is not yet the way for fh.
    i'd prefer early/mid pumping: C.200/IV (or G.50/I), Ki-67-I, Tu-2S, Lancaster, TBD-1, D4Y2a, B6N2a, Ki-48-IIb, probably Mustang Mk. I or Hs 129 B-2.
    or else sitzkrieg D.XXI-4, G.1, T.V, LeO.451...

    however, to close Me 262 issue, i propose:
    1944-10 Me 262 A-1a
    1945-02 Meteor F Mk. III
     
  13. joseh-

    joseh- Well-Known Member

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    OMG! WTG!

    I love you -exec- :mafia:
    Will it be avail? :shuffle:
     
  14. looseleaf

    looseleaf Well-Known Member

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    WOW !

    F-3 with 4X20mm Hispanos ????

    Very interesting indeed.

    Although historically the Meteor air-to-air combat was only with V-1 and all other combat was ground attack on the continent.

    Great idea non-the-less !:super:
     
  15. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    IMHO any jet is spoiling the game.

    I guess it's better to remove Me262 and add some buff or jabo instead.
     
  16. Funtom

    Funtom Well-Known Member

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    agree and remove ki27 and i15 too, i know about their roles in war but in this game are like bad elements, everybody scream "warper!", etc. these planes do too sharp movements...
     
  17. Funtom

    Funtom Well-Known Member

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    When i see i15 or ki27, i fuck them, no intervention, but what i saw in MA yesterday ... :rolleyes: i15 and ki27 do a lot bad blood imo, but if ppl love it, i can turn off my ch100 and use .ignore, np :)
     
  18. Cabron

    Cabron Well-Known Member

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    What's the kill/sortie ratio of the me262.

    It's has zero affect on the arena anyway since jet minute comes up always when nobody on.

    Leave it since it's the only gold plane faster than the 4 red planes that currently outspeed all other gold planes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2010
  19. -ALW-

    -ALW- Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the Me262 I felt was just an abuse mode aircraft for this simulation. It wouldn't have seen the use it gets here.
     
  20. -ALW-

    -ALW- Well-Known Member

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    And don't forget the rocket load that closes fields. :@drunk: