Angle fighter vs Energy fighter

Hello all!

I need to help with some little more advanced tactics in classic duel between Angle fighter (like Spitfire I or V) and Energy fighter (109E - 109F4). Almost all my knowledge and experience is centered on E-fighter tactics and I have problems fighting against E-fighters with better acceleration and climb rate. E-fighters are easier planes for me than angle fighters.

Simple Boom and Zoom attacks are easily defeated even in dog plane like Typhoon or DH98. More agressive attacks with controled closure and angle of aspect are harder to avoid in less agile planes, but still not a real problem.
My problem is situation 1 on 1 against experienced E-fighter, who can use its superior acceleration and climb rate. I know for sure, that unless he will do some critical mistake, it is impossible for me to get a good shot at him even if I defeat his attacks and erase his E-advantage. He can easily regain it and I have no chance to prevent him from doing so, only try to extend and leave fight (which I really hate to do).

So I want to ask what other people are doing in this situation or some tips how to fight against experienced E-fighter (mostly 109, say someone like miixch ) from position at disadvantage.


I will also describe my current favorite defense.
I take defence as an art, where defense moves have different parameters like cost of Energy, safety level and possibility to counterattack. Oblique Split-S is pretty much safe (unless attacking plane is F4U or P40), but energy cost is great, and there is no chance to counterattack. Barrel roll is on opposite side, low E cost, high chance to counterattack, but also less safe against excelent gunners, especially in 0.50" MG armed planes.


If I see incoming attack, I decide if it is better to just defend myself, or if it is reasonable to force him to overshoot and blast him. In first case I simply want to increase his angle-of-tail and rate of closure as much as possible. I use this defense only when trying to reverse situation would be too dangerous.

In second case I prefer low-G turn to increase attacker's angle of tail and closure rate but not hard enough, because I don't want attacker to use vertical plane to counter my turn. I want him to attack me now as he is. When he has decent closure rate (50-100 yards/sec) and he is close enough to shoot (d3-d6), I start low-G lazy variant of barrel roll in opposite way of my previous turn, usually fast enough to keep my lift vector pointed to the opposite direction from his lift vector. I can control his rate of closure by pulling more or less G.
I nicknamed it "death waltz", because it is similar to rolling scissors, but it is finished in less than few seconds. If done properly, he will appear close to my gunsite, and I have nice shot from d1.5-d2.
It is also easy to see, when attacker decides to pull up to avoid overshoot, and often I can pull up at the same time. If he pull up with low-G, he will be again in my sight, and if he makes high-G turn, I can often get that shot too.
If he slows down enough to avoid overshoot, it's most dangerous for me for a moment, but also for him, because he will be fighting at slow speed, where his plane is at disadvantage.

 

hi comet! ))

very nice post, and excellent topic!! do you mind if i move it into international forum so more people can read it?! PLSSSSSS

WTG!

 

Do it. Pleeease

 

"In second case I prefer low-G turn to increase attacker's angle of tail and closure rate but not hard enough, because I don't want attacker to use vertical plane to counter my turn."

Why dont you people use more vertical in evasives?

I see no reason why to to conduct low g turn in level. I would do it inverted and vertical. Its quite soon obivious what opponent will do in such case. He will abandon attack and climb in which case I have enough E to get on his 6 for a while. Or he tries to get angles and pushes on accelerating and i will outmaneuver him pulling against his lift vector until im at his 6.

It can be done in 190 against spits at speed. So I think it works in spit against 109s even better. I've only used Hurri II and p39 mostly and works great on both too. 109s get either snapshot to their ass or lose scissor fight due to excess speed.


Generally I think its only important to know and make your advantages. To know when you need to bleed off speed and when you need to gain it. When you need better turning plane and when you need faster plane...its up to you to make your plane perform according to situation. Using vertical is usually best way to adjust speed since it doesnt cost E. (well sometimes its good to bleed E also). I dont like fighting against equally fast planes at same altitude. I usually prefer to make situation where opponent is either below or above my E state. This makes it easier for me to know where I will win.

For example i like using fast diving evasives in plane with good handling at speed if possible. Opponent will overspeed in diving attacks and has to lose most of his E advantage if he wishes to engage.

Basicly in low E against good opponent in E fighter its only possible to get snapshots. I would more likely try to dive when he climbs and extend to even out E or even disengage until i can climb over him and whack him from above.

Well..sorry this went bit aside topic.

 

You describe barrelroll being unsafe.
Lets forget schoolbook barrelroll and do more like aborted 1/3 split-S.

From side it should look like this -> ~

(0.) Pull slightly up if you need to increase closure and to make shallow maneuver sufficent.

1. roll and pull down against his lift vector to deny angles and make him blind.

2.When you know he will eventually overshoot roll over and pull up to his 6.

Its very effective defensive/offensive maneuver. And as safe as split-S.

 

Sorry that I didn't take the effort of reading the whole thread, I'm running a little tight on schedule...


Energy fighter vs energy fighter, if there is an energy fighter that has superior energy it is the line in between energy fighting and angle fighting that kicks in... you need to fly in such a way that you make the other pilot use his energy in vain, waste it, overshoot you, compress or anything else you think fit for the job to bring the offensive back to you... You see the energy fighter with the most energy will have the initiative if he is good at energy fights, and you must take that away from him, illo describes vertical maneuvers as a nice option, but I out of my own experiences must say that going ballistic is a good way to get a whole load of neatly aimed 20mm's in your ass, that leaves us the dive or split S or anything that points down. The energy fighter will have superior energy so you cannot fight with your energy to beat him there, you must use your energy however to lure him into a bad analisation of the situation, into an underestimation of your energy or just exploit every possible angle advantage you have against him, scissors are an option if he is stupid enough to follow. I'd like to comment though that it is better not to be caught with less energy versus a good energy fighter, normally you are by definition the one going down, unless you start balancing between angles and energy fighting and can force him into that one stupid mistake.

One more remark:
PATIENCE

One of the things I have lost and one of the things that cost me my life over and over and over again...

greetze, Zembla

HAPPY NEW YEAR BTW

 

my squad mates will linch me if i say that AGAIN in our email list

have patience! cons come and go. you dont need to kill 'em NOW

 

If you really want to kill him, have patience and lure him to waste his E while you gaining (but hiding) your E. But against a good E-fighter pilot, it's going to be hard, if not impossible.

Usually I would make evasives until I get a good situation to disengage.

Another posibility is to use pair tatics...

 

Thanks for response

Thanks for your response, people

Yep, it is best to avoid fights with cons with better energy, but because I am flying jabo missions a lot, avoiding higher-E cons is... kinda difficult. And against 109 UFOs, almost every one of them except those more than 5km below is with superior E state j/k

I think fights like this are only between pilots and not between planes, because both knows strenghts and weaknesess of their machines, and both can keep fighting equal fight until one of them makes critical mistake. So I am more focused at "How to beat enemy's mind and morale", because that is decisive factor in those fights.


Hi Illo,

I often use your desribed "1/3 split-s" to increase variety to my defense moves or when attacker has too low closure speed and barrel roll would be too dangerous. Actually I learned it from you, when you were writing about your flying in p39 and fighting with 109 pilots.

My defense roll is far from schoolbook one. It isn't even correct barrel roll, because I don't use rudder. It's defense I learned from ex-WB player =Drex=, from his flight records from AH because I was somewhat shocked how simple and yet effective it was.

About low-G turns.
I don't want to fight 109 on 109's terms. That was my greatest mistake, when I did my first ToD for Reds. It was good to fly other aircrafts as 109, but it was also stupid to fly them in such way against 109. I can't say I know how to fight against 109, it is still one of the great air superiority fighters, probably best one in game

Acceleration and decceleration contests, vertical moves are strongly in favor of 109, at least I think so. If I slow down in any kind of vertical maneouver, and don't kill enemy right after that, I am giving my energy to him. That's why I prefer to keep my speed and altitude and try to outmanouver him using relative difference between our flying paths and speeds. Even carefull horizontal maneouvers aren't bad, when I am sitting in low-E bleeding aircraft like Spitfire.

Low-G turn isn't defensive maneouver at all. It is only preparation for another defensive manouver as it increases his angle-of-tail and closure rate, while I keep my speed and altitude same. So it is nice opening move (when attacked from behind!) which prepares conditions for attacker's overshoot, keeps attacker's mind at least partially busy with estimating necessary lead for what looks like as easy kill, and it gives me time to decide what kind of defense I will finally do.


Hi Zembla and Fla:

I know. Patience. I can fight to stalemate against any 109 as long as I want without taking damage (with very few exceptions), but in all my prolonged fights against experten 109 I became tired of endless fight and accepted headon. Even repeating myself, while hanging on chute, that fact that he accepted HO against canon armed plane, when he was at position of alt and E advantage, was his tactical mistake by the book, doesn't help at all

 

i agree! there is alot of psichology in air combat. you must think what he is thinking, and you must think what he thinks you are thinking

 

What about me, I try to deceive an opponent on my flying abilities. But this is possible only vs non-warpers. I do evasives at low G, but enough to hardly evade his first attacks. He thinks has encountered a novice, or low-class pilot. Starts attempts to outturn me, trading all his E for a chance to score hits. Here... suddenly I switch to vertical maneuvring and very often I evade the first HO after immelman. He tries to hit and bleeds E even more... This sudden switch from novice to expert maneuvring is so frustrating, that I often see people exiting after being killed

 

Vadim.... I fly exactly the same style and philosophy. I would much rather score an earned kill from an inferior position,than wrack up a long kill-streak by killing from every advantage against relative newbies,and running at the first percieved disadvantage. Is it smart to fly holding ALL the cards?-YES!!!
But it teaches nothing of the art of ACM,and THAT is what keeps me coming back every year. All for the pursuit of an 'earned' kill and the continued growth in my ACM and SA skills.
Running teaches....running. In this virtual arena, the only reason for not pushing the envelope is, IMO to marvel at ones own score and imagine he has achieved some measure of expertise.
I would much rather be 'killed' in the pursuit of greater ACM skills.

Screw the score, we vets all know how to achieve a great score.
Push yourself!-if you die -contemplate the engagement....and apply the lesson next time. Many of the high scorers are rather helpless in a fight that becomes ...'even' , try to push yourself beyond this ego driven mediocrity

 

Real skill lies in ability to avoid inferior position. IMHO.

Best pilot never needs to run. Because he never loses his advantage, in theory. If he needs to disengage he does it from superior position.

Learning better to keep advantage of position and energy and learning to shoot with more accuracy and with any deflection isnt bad.

Nope you dont learn from running, but you will definetely learn much from decisive happening that forced you to run.

 

not serious

hi,

i am a newbie in fighter and i admit to know no maneuvernames etc, i fly by "feeling".

i need more stuff to read about maneuvers to know first what i have to learn. then i need the right decision what to do...

i have seen what pilots do around me.... now i know i need to learn many more

who teaches flightmaneuvres and tactics?

 

As for the topic itself: I've found it interesting to start a fight by doing some gentle turns, well in general turns that look like hard ass turns (i.e. turns where you lose your E) but executing them so that you waste none or only a minimal ammount of E, only to start an energy fight after the first turn... or the 2nd turn... it's often very very hard for a new pilot or even a veteran pilot to cope with... if you just shift tactics in the midst of a fight there is a big chance the enemy will fail to follow...

greetze, Zembla

I dunno torsti, lots of these guys in here have enough knowledge about ACM and SA to learn you a few things, but in the end the most things you learn are the ones you learn out of experience by flying... I myself never really was mentored or tutored, I've winged up with blue odi and all the rest I can think of, but that's different from being tutored, in the end you're still the one that needs to learn the stuff eh...

 

Disclaimer: I'm not that good of a pilot (just check my stats, or rather don't, spare me the embarassment ).
If someone is committing to a BnZ pass on me I will:
1. Start a 2g upward turn or snake (alternating gentle left and right turns), to get him to bleed off a bit of E.
2a. Do a barrel roll with uncoordinated rudder (i.e. you roll to the right, feed in max. left rudder), that way you are pretty dang hard to hit, OR
2b. Do much like illo said, start a right/left barrel roll, but end up going straight down for a couple of seconds. That way, he loses visual and pulls up, giving me a snapshot chance, or he flips the bird over and enters a rolling scissors with me, thus blowing his E for a snapshot opportunity.

The problem for me is E-management and plane control at low-speed situations in this game, though .

PS. I would appreciate any comments on my tactics, especially the critical ones, thx .

 

A straight Barrel rolls isn't that effective IMHO. I'd say on average I can kill 60% of cons I dive on that barrel roll to avoid a BnZ.

Zem sums it up, I know the best manoveur for avoiding a BnZ attack (The one I can never hit when I'm the one attacking) but I'm not going to say because then everyone would use it and I wouldn't get half the kills I do.

Mal

 

Re: not serious

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~frontacs/WBStored/index.html

 

Why so. Isn't most fun to fight against opponents who can fight back. Isn't it most fun to learn?

Im happy that isnt the case with all virtual pilots. I've learned most from DocDoom, wulfie, --ik--, StSanta, Grünherz and other great pilots (IMHO). These all were more than happy to share their experience.

Btw. Before I first time came to FH I read lots and lots of wb and ACM related discussions and tips from net. I had basic ideas of E fighting and each planes capabilities before I ever flown them in wb. Some practice with grobar and brajo. (who kicked my ass more than i did their in H2H). And when I came to arena first time it was suprisingly easy. I got 2 kills and rtb alive from my 1st sortie. And something like 27streak in my first week. I think all thanks goes to tips and tricks i learned by reading comments of more experienced virtual pilots who wanted to share and evolve their tactics.

I think 50% might be theory. Rest 50% is application and refining this theory to practice. Use maneuvers at right times combining them and combining parts of them forming harmonized flying with clear objective in mind all the time.

Ie. knowledge where to roll and when to cut best route through 3d evironment. Estimating position of opponent in next 10seconds and maneuvering for advantage in that situation. Not current one. I think all this most important ive learned from others and put to practice myself. Sometimes better sometimes worse.

Experience brings confidence in these actions. Feeling of what works and when.

I think one good tip is to try different variations of maneuver you are learning . If it doesnt work as you thought adjust a little and try again. If it works, think how it would be even more effective. Try it..use or abandon.

 

for attacking well, it is good to know ACM. both, for your moves (like hi yoyos to conserve E, or chandelles to catch the followers) and for predicting the enemies moves (like any evasives such as barrels, scissors, etc).

but then again, for defending its good to know how to attack, know in what type of situation you would pull up, or when the attacker will have to work more to get another attack run, etc.

in other words: FLY. that was basically the tip i was given. and hell, did it work!
i used to spend whole afternoons on FH.. maybe you dont have the time i used to. but flying a bit everyday can make up for it. and a bit of good-will + determination helps too ;-)

then i must thank them too, since they taught my mentor: you!
you probably dont remember teaching me the hammer head. ive seen you explaining it to so many people! impressive patience!
i remember our sorties - radio always pretty active with lessons.. and after the sorties, always ~30 minutes of teaching.
and in short whiles, when i was flying alone, ide suddenly notice all what you explained in practice, concluding all the process, and giving me the "feel" of the theory.
thanks for all those 109 and 190 sorties, which filled 90% of what i know on pair flying!