December 2022, and 2023

Discussion in 'Off Topic International' started by OldUncles, Dec 2, 2022.

  1. OldUncles

    OldUncles Well-Known Member

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    Let's hope that we can all remain friends during these crazy times. I keep returning to this forum because there are a lot of good people here.

    And I'm a little drunk. But that statement is from my heart.
     
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  2. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

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    Not "all" but at least some of us can.
     
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  3. -frog-

    -frog- Well-Known Member

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    I just hope you will come back to your senses some day :)
    That's just hope, nothing more, as "hope dies last".

    For now I can but greet you with "get the fuck out" - exactly as you did wish me in February :)
    Fuck you, you Russcist piece of shit :)
     
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  4. Crimso

    Crimso Well-Known Member

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    :dunno:
     
  5. -frog-

    -frog- Well-Known Member

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    Dichotomy of the "modern western world".
    Uncles remains a symmetrist, firmly believing that the world can be reconciled following the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
    I'm a realist, who spoke to a British volunteer fighting in Ukraine today.
    I no longer believe there's hope for Russia, that there's a way to reconcile Putin's Russia (let us stress this - that's "Putin's Russia" and not "Russia" as such) with the West.
    All of you, supporting Hitler Putler should be punished - that's a realist point of view.
    The symmetrist point of view is that you can be saved by reconciliation.

    THAT'S A FUCKING LIE!
    IT DOES NOT WORK THIS WAY!

    The frigging Catholic Church did it in 1940s, and it doesn't work.
    Ever heard of Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Höß @OldUncles ?
    That fucker commanded Auschwitz death camp until December 1943, and was responsible for 1.1 to 1.5 MILLION deaths!
    He reverted to Catholicism in prison.
    After being sentenced to death by Polish National Tribunal he went to confession, and RECEIVED ABSOLUTION from the priest.
    That is his sins "were taken away from him", he was no longer a sinner after that.
    After that he participated in Holy Communion, and was hanged.

    According to those pious idiots, Catholics, Höß is now in HEAVEN, as all his sins were forgiven during the confession.

    That is the path of reconciliation that you, @OldUncles are following.
     
  6. OldUncles

    OldUncles Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad that I'm not religious, else I might be offended. You aren't a follower of your parents' brand of spiritualism, and neither am I (my Kraut family was Lutheran, anyway). But I will not throw away any friendships because of a war. I don't give a crap about any spritiual absolution, and I do not -- as of today, at least -- feel especially immoral. I think that I'm trying to be objective, in the sense that I try to consider both sides of this war between NATO and Russia with a somewhat cynical eye.

    You think I'm stupid (very true), and that I don't understand what's happening (mostly true).
     
  7. Crimso

    Crimso Well-Known Member

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    vasco and frog comes to every topic on this forum and bring a hate and malice and trying to convince all that they are the white elves and all others is awful murderers and should be killed in the name of light and justice.
    It is became slightly boring...
     
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  8. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    The ruSSians invaded Ukraine killing civilians, including children, bombing homes, stealing food (thousands of tonnes of grain), machinery and land. Brutally torturing people and performing mass killings. While you, in Moscow, support this and propagate your genocidal views. By now you might understand that I really don't feel offended by your post: I have no reason. Nor do I wonder where are the "hate and malice" - world looks different when you sit upside-down, like yourselves.
     
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  9. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    Did you ever talk to the Ukrainians on this forum? Did you make an attempt, since you're saying you're trying to consider both sides? Did you even read their posts?
    Did you know the Ukrainians are involved in this too? Did you know that their country is the one being invaded and their people the ones being killed?

    This war isn't a NATO - russia one. I live in a NATO country, the same as you do, and it's not a war we're fighting in.

    Are there any of the Ukrainians on this forum among those "good people" here?
    I'm sure they appreciate your "nice words" for what they are.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2022
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  10. -frog-

    -frog- Well-Known Member

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    Nope - you bring your praise of war crimes, your hatred against Ukraine and Ukrainians, your puny threats here.
    Today's Russia is a terrorist state, guilty of numerous war crimes, not only in Ukraine, but also (to list just recent) in Syria.
    We react.
    Sometimes bluntly, but you more than deserve it.

    FOR FUCK SAKES - you idiots were enjoying stupid cartoons presenting the "great Russia" switching off power of the "Ukrainian pigs".
    That's not only praise of war crimes (targeting of civilian infrastructure and making the civilian population of Ukraine suffer from cold and power shortages), but also active participation in these crimes.

    YOU'RE A BUNCH OF FUCKING WAR CRIMINALS

    The sooner you get it, the sooner there will ba a chance to discuss with you without unnecessary emotions.
     
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  11. -frog-

    -frog- Well-Known Member

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    You're not stupid.
    I do believe you're misinformed.
    This war is pretty abstract for you (and as a matter of fact to most of the Muscovites writing here), who are living thousands of kilometres away.
    I live just a few dozen kilometers away.

    As far as my parents' spiritualism is considered - neither of my parents was religious.
    My mother is an atheist.
    My father was a deist, but did not feel bound by the limits of any official religion, and also a hippie (during his university years - which was quite hard, as Polish communists did not like the non-conformist movements, no matter how peaceful they were).
    I consider myself an agnostic, so I pretty much be called a "follower" of my parents' spiritualism.
     
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  12. mcgru-

    mcgru- Well-Known Member

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    ... they'r shitting everywhere.
    Uncle, please be aware.
     
  13. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    Like this shit, for example

     
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  14. OldUncles

    OldUncles Well-Known Member

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    Yes I have spoken to persons on both sides in this conflict. And I really wish that I knew nothing about this war. The February 2022 "war" is new , but this is a very complicated situation. I have been talking to Russians and Ukrainians since since 1982.

    Of course RO is fighting. Don't you read the news? I know that you do, BTW. NATO is funded by the USA (primarily). This is a fact that can be easily confirmed by any objective source of information.

    I think that the facts are clear in terms of financing. I say that not thinking about "moral" considerations. I'm just being an analyst here. The amount of weapons and money being sent to the war from the USA is shocking. And don't be surprised is some of those weapons appear in your country, in the hands of "bad guys."

    Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a relativist.

    I think all people are good people.
     
  15. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    And yet you're convinced that the Ukrainians must somehow be deserving it.
    And yet all the ruSSian xenophobia is fine to you.

    Nonsense.
    Nonsense. You have a very deformed view of my country.
    You must be meaning defence spending.
    It's a good thing your guys don't wait for the wanking Europeans.
    The NATO countries' spending target is 2% of GDP, which not all countries really spend.
     
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  16. -frog-

    -frog- Well-Known Member

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    It is not.
    The amount of aid provided by Lithuania or Latvia is shocking, the amount of aid provided by e.g. Germany falls below expectations.
    See the chart below:
    [​IMG]


    Well - Yanks donated 27.4 billion $ - but the GDP of USA is 20.9 trillion USD, which makes their contribution less than 0.15% of their GDP.
    Take UK - the second largest contributor - it has a GDP of 2.65 trillion USD, which means that their contribution falls within that 0.15-0.2% range.
    Third contributor - us. GDP of roughly 0.7 trillion USD, and a contribution of 1.8 billion. That's 0.35%
    And take Latvia - GDP of just 33.6 billion USD. Yet a contribution of U$ 0.30 billion. That's near a whopping 1%!

    That's just the military aid.
    I guess you don't hear Ukrainian almost every day. I do.
    Poland redirected a lot of resources and efforts to accommodate refugees too.
    I guess the biggest "thing" here, is that we don't have refugee camps. We don't need them. Polish society was "elastic" enough to accommodate our guests without the need to isolate them - in an inclusive, rather than excluding manner.
     
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  17. OldUncles

    OldUncles Well-Known Member

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    That is a mischaracterization of my position, my friend. I didn't say that the Russians are justified re. the invasion, but I do say that I understand their motivation. They -- the Russians -- have a sense of self-preservation, and they act accordingly. Reality is, we may not agree, but they act in a way that they consider as being in their own best interests.

    We are not Russian leaders. We are not NATO leaders. What do we know about their motives? Not so much. All that we can do is speculate and guess. Make half-assed guesses, make what we consider to be correct/moral pronouncements. That's what I do. I'm just watching it all and not trying to not be too judgemental. (And sure, I am a product of my family history and personal experience.)

    I guess I'm guilty of being a relativist again.

    Interestingly, Georgia is trying to remain neutral.
     
  18. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    You might not realise, but joining a discussion with outraged adult people with this idea, that "they have their motives" - a discovery we make during childhood regarding any human action - is not going to win you buddies.
     
  19. -frog-

    -frog- Well-Known Member

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    I am afraid that Georgia has no other option.
    Not only is its army tiny (37k service personnel, no significant airforce - they don't have any fighters), but also pretty much insignificant in terms of its arms. It only has some antiquated T-55 and T-72 tanks. They are also able to spend only a little ($350M, including purchases) to keep it going.
    Compare that to the small armed forces of Poland (which are smaller than the Ukrainian army was even prior to the 2014 invasion by Russia) - 150k active personnel, largest tank fleet in the European Union (we've sent most of our T-72s to Ukraine, but we've just received the first batch of Korean K2 Black Panthers yesterday), some issues with long-range AA defenses still need sorting out, but we're pretty much in the 21st and not in the 20th century "equipment-wise" - budget? $14 billion, excluding equipment purchases... i.e. 40 times that of Georgia.

    What Georgia also hosts is a large population of Russian defectors.

    Georgia was dwarfed by Russia in 2008, and it deserves the attention of international community after the "Beast from the East" finally kicks the bucket.
    But it holds, by no means, no options for opposing the Russian giant, even if the latter is now finding it hard to keep its military on the "going concern" basis.

    Georgia (with its magnificent wines - remember - buy Georgian wines to support Georgia - it's most likely the sole product of Georgia you can get there) is a nation of 3 million Georgians... Russia is a nation of some 150 million supporters of Putin's regime (albeit some of them were forced into loving the Putler).
     
  20. OldUncles

    OldUncles Well-Known Member

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    hehe

    [Edit: Sorry, I should not have been so blunt in my approach. "Salvation through suffering," that was a thing with Dostoevskii, and I think he was correct.]
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2023