On red buffs, and gold side..

Discussion in 'Warbirds International' started by demian, Jul 25, 2009.

  1. demian

    demian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    917
    So, me and my friend Krok were talking about 30mm , range , and buff busting. He thinks limiting 30mm to d4 was good idea, i dont.
    I think 30mm should be changed for lets say , cobra's 37mm , or 110's 37mm,
    or for that matter lagg's 23mm. Something that doesnt have such firing rate as mk108 does, but with not limited range. Because its really boring to chase buffs and to be split in half by otto at d7 range, while attempting to get into d4 range. Krok was laughing on my idea, which insulted me , him being my friend , yet laughing on my thinking. He challenged me to fly buff and to kill me easily with mk 108 from 109 k4.
    Next thing happened.
    First he attacked from higher alt, he put 1x30 in my wing, but he got 12 shvaks and he lost his rear fuselage.

    17:38:53 PM se-ven(Private): I've hited your [Raileron] by 1x[30_MK_108]
    17:38:54 PM boa---(Private): I've hit 1x20_ShVAK in se-ven's Elev (0.106)
    17:38:54 PM boa---(Private): I've hit 1x20_ShVAK in se-ven's Hstab (0.106)
    17:38:54 PM boa---(Private): I've hit 1x20_ShVAK in se-ven's Cfuel (0.106)
    17:38:54 PM boa---(Private): I've hit 2x20_ShVAK in se-ven's Rfuselage (0.211)
    17:38:54 PM boa---(Private): I've hit 1x20_ShVAK in se-ven's Flaps (0.106)
    17:38:54 PM boa---(Private): I've hit 1x20_ShVAK in se-ven's Cfuel (0.106)
    17:38:54 PM boa---(Private): I've hit 3x20_ShVAK in se-ven's Rfuselage (0.317)
    17:38:54 PM boa---(Private): I've hit 2x20_ShVAK in se-ven's Rfuselage (0.211)
    17:39:55 PM -HOST-(Host): Kill of se-ven by boa--- from mAdNeSs

    then he started new sortie, climbed attacked from below ,
    put 1x30 in my other wing, got some 7mms , and ran to distance


    :48:47 PM boa---(Private): I've hit 1x7.62_ShKAS_twin in se-ven's Hstab (0.014)
    17:48:47 PM boa---(Private): I've hit 1x7.62_ShKAS_twin in se-ven's Rfuselage (0.014)
    17:48:47 PM boa---(Private): I've hit 1x7.62_ShKAS_twin in se-ven's Flaps (0.014)
    17:49:02 PM -HOST-(Damage): you've got hole 2.589 m in lwing
    17:49:02 PM se-ven(Private): I've hited your [L_wing] by 1x[30_MK_108]

    then he climbed away, same sortie and came again. This time he hit 1x 30 in my elevator , and got 4xshvak which caused him to lose engine.

    17:49:02 PM se-ven(Private): I've hited your [Elev] by 1x[30_MK_108]
    17:49:05 PM boa---(Private): I've hit 1x20_ShVAK in se-ven's Oil_eng1 (0.106)
    17:49:05 PM boa---(Private): I've hit 1x20_ShVAK in se-ven's Rgear (0.106)
    17:49:05 PM boa---(Private): I've hit 1x20_ShVAK in se-ven's L_wing (0.106)
    17:49:06 PM boa---(Private): I've hit 1x20_ShVAK in se-ven's Eng1 (0.106)

    After those 3x30mk 108 bullets in my pe8 , i landed safely on red field with just g over on elevator. I told him after first sortie what my friend Exec told me, that is dmg model, so that he should count how many bullets he got and how many put . He put in first sortie 1x 30mm and got amazing 12 shvaks, and the fact that he didnt kill me , i think its because of dmg model.
    Anyhow, pe8 survived 2x 109 attacks , 3x30mm , landed.
    That is not enough for my friend Krok , he now talks how he needs to train 30mm shooting, still thinking its ok that everything is historical except range of 30mm but thats ok cause "its easy to kill red buffs".
    Comparing to the fact that i personally killed 2xhe177 the other day from p38 ,
    which has astonishing d8 50 caliber range, this makes me sick.
    Flying p-38 and hitting every con i encountered while he climbs up to d8 really can make a person sick feeling. And i love p-38. And i loved old La-5
    while it was logical continue of lagg series, being hard to fight 190s not to mention 109s. And i loved Krok and many guys in here as great friends and ppl. But this is really getting sick, trying to explain something to ppl who just choose not to see. Not to see anything that is not according to their selfish view of the world. Why i am i writing this post? Do i expect something to be changed in here? No i do not anymore. I just write to cry out loud, why is so difficult to make ppl To SEE.
     
  2. Krok-

    Krok- Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    14,465
    Location:
    Город русских моряков
    Demian, my friend, i not said that d4 for mk108 it good ,
    I just think that D12 was bad ;)
    At the same time, I think that 30mm fine kills buffs.
    If my attack is not impressed you , there are many more experienced hunters for buffs , with whom I often meet in pe8's db3f's b25's ...
    We have just a little different perspective on this experiment :)
     
  3. gil---

    gil--- FH Beta Tester

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,977
    Just another routine kill of He-177 by spit, i didn't make right smart attack, didnt think about dead zones etc, cause all that is not needed, just climbed asap, pulled nose up and killed it without any dmg to my plane.
    Was it harder than killing of Pe-8 or B-24 by 30mm 109? - no, it was very easy, is it time to cut dist of hispano?

    That's nice :).
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2010
  4. Cabron

    Cabron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    371
    Location:
    Key Biscayne
    I've watched some gold plane shoot up a few guys over a field (I was jeep) and his red tracers went an extremely long way with no noticable drop.

    Much further than the 50 caliber tracers as I watched it HO a mustang.

    What plane mounted 30mm shoots further than D10?
     
  5. gil---

    gil--- FH Beta Tester

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,977
    No one, are u sure that was 30mm? 109G10 (K4 with 20mm) is very popular now. But it can't fire at D10 too.
     
  6. Cabron

    Cabron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    371
    Location:
    Key Biscayne
    Might have been a larger gun but what I saw doesn't matter much.

    I was just wondering if any plane mounted 30mm have more than D10 range.

    I could have been seeing a larger bore cannon like 50mm.
     
  7. mumble

    mumble Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2007
    Messages:
    1,315
    Location:
    in a bar
    gun ranges, fu 30mm dweebs, DM, whatever...

    Maybe it's time to stop cutting distances of guns on planes. Instead restore former distances to all weapons and increase dispersal of 30mm rounds. I think we tried that and TGR came in and bitched about it to the point where admin gave in and put the laser d 12 30mm back.

    It could be that our major issue is problem with DM all along. Nobody else seems to think this is a problem. How many times must F4F/Ju-88 still fly without hstab for this to become a problem? How many more times must 30/37mm hit in Lgear not count as hitting Lwing and downing the aircraft? How much more often does 1 x 20mm need to destroy both engines in P-38, Beau, 110, etc? How many more white planes need to have pk from some asshole shooting it? How much more self-bombing needs to occur? That and whatever this post was about, too. I think it was something about lemon cake.
     
  8. Tzebra

    Tzebra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    510
    Re: gun ranges, fu 30mm dweebs, DM, whatever...

    After the admins called for reliable evidence of any system before they would make any changes, to anything, I wrote an article, and posted it for the admins here many years ago, regarding the DM. I used in-game examples, WW2 war stories, and manufactures data regarding the Mk108, P39 37mm, and B25H 75mm.
    I showed without any doubts that the Mk108 was in reality a piece of shit, it had a very limited range, and the ammunition failed to fuse the majority of the time due to poor manufacturing, but in game it was Uber to the point of being able to sink ships on a whim.

    The total lack of "not giving a shit" by the admins, and the progressively fucked up versions made me walk out the door and erase WB from my HD a couple of years ago.
     
  9. Zembla JG13

    Zembla JG13 FH Beta Tester

    Joined:
    May 8, 2001
    Messages:
    4,791
    Location:
    .be
    Re: gun ranges, fu 30mm dweebs, DM, whatever...

    Thank god you didn't erase this forum from your favorites together with the rest of WB.

    -Z
     
  10. gil---

    gil--- FH Beta Tester

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,977
    And hispano at the beginning was a piece of shit too, Ki-84 and Ki-61 had very unreliable engines, La5 had 50"C in cocpit and pilot had to ajust about 8 switches in right order to right position to change from cruising mode to WEP and continualy ajust 2 or 3 according to alt and speed, typhoon had problems with powder gas in cocpit, etc...
    This game can't correctly simulate real quality, reliability and ergonomics of planes and guns, developers can just model characteristics of ideal planes according to there specifications and test results (if they are available).
    And it's not correct to compare reality and in game practise cause in real there never met hords of pilots with expirience of 1000+ kills. There methods in fight are far more sophisticated then all ever used in real war, and results surely different too. Even if any developers will model all planes with 100% realism in any game (btw characteristics of planes in WB are close enough to history now), tactics of using these planes and results achived will be far from that in real life.
    So best developers can make about Mk-108 is to give it's shells initial speed of 520 m/s, historical mass and drag, add some random spread (dew to plane vibrations etc, should be smaller then one of wing mounted hispano btw) and let players decide how to use it best, decision will differ from one in real war, but same is with all stuff we have in game.
    Some theory: real ballistic of Mk-108 is about 40m alt loose at 1000 m, so shooting B-24 from D10 u need just to aim a bit higher to deliver very powerfull munition to target and that will be realistic for fully operational Mk-108.
    Why didn't pilots do that in real - imho because they didn't have offline, where they could spend thousands of shells to practise shooting at any target from any dist they need, any time they need.

    One hit of Mk-108 :) http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/weapon/mk108blenheim.jpg It's HE munition really was more powerful then HE of 37mm M4.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2009
  11. Red Ant

    Red Ant Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2002
    Messages:
    4,922
    Location:
    Germany
    Perhaps cutting short the range of 30mm shells so much wasn't quite the best idea, though I admit that I didn't shed any tears over it.
    Anyway, I think the real problem is not that 30mm doesn't reach far enough, the real problem is that Russian otto is ridiculously overdone. Pe-2/8s are almost impossible to attack without dying in some of the less heavily armed / armored gold planes. Compared to attacking a Pe-2, attacking a B-17 / B-24 is a piece of cake.
    Also, the P-38 is probably a bit overmodeled in this respect too because, as demian has pointed out, parking a P-38 at D9 behind a bomber and shredding it to pieces is a relatively low-risk affair. I used to do that a lot. cal .50 range has been reduced a bit, too, I know ... but it's still not particularly hard to kill bombers in a P-38 without otto ever scoring a hit ... then again that may mainly be because a P-38 never has to face Russian otto.
     
  12. Cabron

    Cabron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    371
    Location:
    Key Biscayne
    Do the guns movement limitations here resemble real life as close as possible as well?

    I was just starting to climb out of a field and a ju52 (empty...no troops left) used his energy advantage to chase me.

    I levelled out and started to pull away such that he never did get dead underneath me and switched to external view to see his otto shooting forward to the point of putting 400 bullets into my bomber in short order as I pulled away.
     
  13. -al---

    -al--- Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,848
    Location:
    Poznań
    it was probably one of his side gunners, the top gunner can't shoot forward and don't you even dare claim that the dude was cheating ;)
    besides it easily could have been due to lag
     
  14. Cabron

    Cabron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    371
    Location:
    Key Biscayne
    Lag.....we were going the exact same speed for half a minute and I watched bullets come forward and up from the JU52.

    I' don't think I have 30,000 ms of lag.
     
  15. -al---

    -al--- Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,848
    Location:
    Poznań
    oh well, bullet might have some other answers for you then
     
  16. mumble

    mumble Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2007
    Messages:
    1,315
    Location:
    in a bar
    The answer is: Stupid people suck.

    Not an attack on you ant, just using your post to help make a point.

    People complained about B-24 otto once upon a time, and they obliterated the B-24 otto system. Now, it's just a flying dump truck since it's had the ball turret removed and otto vision reduced. I often find that I must go shoot down cons by manning the guns myself. Even then, the odds of downing a con at d4 behind me with that piss poor excuse for a bottom gunner in the B-24 are practically nil.

    The problem with otto being so effective in this game are the retarded fighters attacking the bomber. You know, the morons that think it's a great idea to fly IN THE SAME DIRECTION with a bomber, on it's DEAD SIX, or underneath the bomber ON IT'S DEAD SIX, and then wonder why otto is so effective in shooting them down. That's akin to standing still in front of a firing squad and wondering why it's so easy to get shot in the face.

    If that's not your issue, then start flying nothing but bombers one tour and see what attacks are effective on you and which attacks are a dismal failure. You should find the people that attack you are usually idiots flying on your dead six at d5 getting chewed apart by otto. At least it was that way until rgreat or whoever totally fucked up the system on the b24, b17, and pretty much any plane but the pe2/8 so these same idiots can hang out back there at d5 and be ok.

    I think the answer to all our problems is to roll back to several versions ago and stop flying like morons. Maybe even getting a rework done on the damage model would be good, too.
     
  17. airfax

    airfax Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2001
    Messages:
    3,222
    Location:
    Tampere,Finland
    nah, same thing happened with the rep points.
    people complained about it, and it got obliterated too...

    :D
     
  18. -al---

    -al--- Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,848
    Location:
    Poznań
    and I had so many :(
     
  19. Uncles

    Uncles Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,787
    Location:
    Post-American USA
    +1 :D
     
  20. Cabron

    Cabron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    371
    Location:
    Key Biscayne
    Also....what's up with doing a HO on a bomber at like 350mph and the rear otto hitting you with 45 bullets as you streak past?