OT: George Bush and Iraq

@Glas,

You missed my point,and it wasn't your fault. What I meant was that US only helped WAR in Yugoslavia by recognizing independence to former YU states. The same help south vietnam and s. korea received. Help to go to war, not make peace.
As for "Serbian atrocities" can I remind you that UN had observers and soldiers thruout Bosnian war, but they still called Milosevic a "peacemaker and factor of stability" when USA needed him at Dayton.
Double standards, lies? What?
Now when they don't need him they accuse him.
Why aren't Croatian and Muslim leaders accused also? Well, if you negate Serbian victims, then they are not guilty.
I know there is no point in trying to convince you, it is too bad that you people have to feel it on your own skin to start to believe. As far as I'm concerned think all you want about Serbs, better that than to live what we lived thru. I do not wish that to happen to anyone.
All I can say is: Europe will be ashamed one day for treating Serbs like it did.

 

Well for all of us here loks like you ( as a sofa potato ) are the one that poses best knowledge about YU war topic. Actualy I am quite sure you must know beter than any citizen of former YU what was going on there, just by sitin there in your sofa with remote controle in your hand alowing your self braing feeding from TV set. Have you ever tried to think about on what is based your knowledge on that topic?
.

Ok let me play your role now. Lets say I am the one that is well knowledgeable.
- As all world was able to se You Britons have problems with IRA. Isn't that because Dublin would like independence in entire Ireland? I remember not that while ago blody klashing there. Well, se... for you is alowed to use power in purpose of shuting down protests ("inside of your country") but when former Yugo tried same thing just sudenly that is "a Big No, No" thing and all ended up in Suport of independence of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia...
To continue - we have more drastic / obvious and explicit example down on midle east, everyday killin all because of ( piece here piece there ) of land. And all is hapenin' in front of mainkind eyes and nobody say a think about that.

I will totaly agree on that what you said there, actualy that was only smart thing you said , so take a friendly piece of advice don't talk about something that you do not know and that is based only on media created public opinion.
And if you are realy in something that is intriguing you take a time and try to find as much as you can independent nonpoliticaly/painted informations / prooves... than say somethin'.

 

The fact you are equating the situation in Nortern Ireland with that in the former Yugoslavia says everything about you I need to know.

There is no claim by 'Dublin' to Northern Ireland, the 'claim' is made by the IRA and other terrorist factions. These are people who stay in both the Republic and in the North and play no part whatsoever in the governing of either the Republic or the North. They are, quite simply, terrorists. They have killed and maimed thousands of innocent Brits throughout the years and as a result the British Government has had an ongoing 'war' with the terrorists for decades. In all the years of trouble, the amount of innocent people killed by the British Army in Northern Ireland, whilst always regrettable, is negligible compared with the amount of innocent people killed by the IRA.

How does that compare with the former Yugoslavia exactly? Under Milosevic's regime, thousands upon thousands of people died in a very short space of time due to ethnic cleansing. Do you honestly feel that these 2 situations have some kind of parallel??

I think you ought to check your facts before slagging other people off. And also, the fact i dont know EVERYTHING about a part of the world does not mean I cannot use my informed opinion when discussing the subject.

Finally....did you even read the context of my initial statement that you were so quick to jump on? Are you denying that thousands of people were murdered? Are you denying that the the US, as a major part of the UN, committed it's military to that area to help the innocent people from being butchered and displaced? This has got nothing to do with the ins and outs of Yugoslavia, its about looking at a bare fact and acknowledging it, something you are so obviously unwilling to do.

-glas-

 

Glas, read your own sig and draw your conclusions. Don't waste any effort on Ronin.

As for the entire Yugoslavia story:
I am SOOO glad we've got that sick fuck Milosevic here in the prison at Scheveningen. If it were up to me, I'd say: put him on the electric chair and FRY HIM! I am against the death penalty, but a fascist like hime DESERVES to die.

 

devill, I dont profess to know anything about what happened in your country. Having lived through it there is no doubt you could teach most people on these boards a thing or 2. Something that is, to me, undeniable is that because of Milosevic thousands of people were murdered. The fact there were others guilty of the same thing (Croatian and Muslim leaders) does not take away from the fact of what Milosevic done. It also does not take away from my original point which was that, when there was thousands of people in desperate need of safety, the UN stepped in and provided that safety, be they Muslims, Croats or (I would hope) Serbs who were suffering persecution.

I have nothing at all against Serbia or its people, despite what you might think. I would, however, have strong feelings against anyone who tried to justify the actions of the Milosevic regime. The leader of a country does not always carry out the will of his people, a problem we have in the UK right now (not exactly on a par with what Milosevic done but same situation nonetheless). To suggest I dislike Serbians is akin to saying I think all Germans were fascist nazi bastards when Hitler was rising to his peak.

Btw I did miss your initial point and now that you have made it clearer I also, to some extent, agree with what you say. My original point about the UN's intervention tho was based on the humanitarian side of things and not the political side. There is too much of an underlying history which i know nothing about for me to comment on that side of things.

-glas-

 

Aye, too true mate.

In amongst all the other points i have made, this is one I probably felt the most but omitted to say. Milosevic is a evil sick fucker who deserves everything coming to him.

-glas-

 

@ glas
I see there is no point in talking here with "you == ( brainwashed and blind under the quotes )" any more. Ah yeah my cat has blue eyes and outside is a bit rainy day...

@ sebbo
Did i tell ya you shuld be ashemed of your avatar. Let me guess you just came home ( Amsterdam if im right? ) from the store where you can buy on killos any type of drugs. What did you use this time lol?

 

LOL ignorant as well as stupid all in one sentence.

FYI, Bas stays in Rotterdam. Also, i just happened to spend 5 (glorious) days in his company at his home. Despite the massive quantities of weed consumed, not one single drag of a spliff passed his lips. I get the feeling it was written in jest, but then i doubt you have the intellect

Btw I dont care that you dont agree. In fact, im happy I would be worried if someone of opinions such as yours began agreeing with me.

-glas-

 

Youre against death penalty?
Doesn't sound like that.

 

- 5 glorious days in his company, -> did you enjoy
- at his home,
- massive quantities of weed consumed, -> well that was smart

Let me guess you have rainbow painted all over your windows
What are you two... just a friends or something is going on there lol

After all this i have read, kid you have 100% credit from me lol.
And yes I agree totaly with you, I am stupid cozz I alowed to my self to get in to an argument with (acording to your statements from the above) drug adicted fag or pls corect me

as for me this conversation is done no mater what you mumble down in your next post
ronin


regards

 

True....

I am against the death penalty, but I do think that SOME people have no right to live anymore. In such cases, they must be murdered but the person murdering them should be punished as well, since murder is against the law

Quite a paradox...

 

Why should I be ashamed of my avatar?
Ernesto Guevara was a socialist, willing to fight against facism.
Slobodan Milosevic is a facist, willing to kill for his ethnicity.

So why should I be ashamed of my avatar? I agree fully with Che's ideas.

As for the gay-reference you made: even IF me and Glas had a sexual affair, what would it matter to you? WE live in a democracy and can do whatever the hell we want. In most other countries, however, you'd be discriminated if you're gay....

Point I am trying to make is:
Being called gay, homo or fag is NOT an insult! Try something better, Ronin!

 

i guess more punishment for this man would be to spend rest of his life in prison with consciousness that his own nation hates him, that he has failed, that he has lost everything. Mb this would help him to realize how his very own is miserable and mb he would change in his mind. Killing him now and letting him live another life without that experience would just not repair anything and this twisted part of mind would be making evil again.

in another words : why to vulcht ditch killer?

You do? So where's your gun? Do you have any personal property? Do you live in commune?
See, Guevara was remarkable man, but nowadays he's more western symbol of liberalism and commercial object for capitalism. He would be really surprised if he would see that ppl are buying t-shirts with his portrait and that someone is saying "i truly agree with his ideas" - he was no philospher, he was soldier of revolution - spread the communism over the world with fire no matter if ppl want it no matter how much blood will it cost.
me respect che for that he sacrificed everything including his very own life for ideas he believed (i even admire idea of pure communism - but that's utopia) but i don't think he did good - there's another ways than terroristic one.
i can respect bin Ladin as well... he's devotion and the goal he is pursuing - ideal spiritual society - who can say that his goals are not great


edited - added second paragraph
ps: read twice, than throw stones

 

So we disagree there....

I said I agree with his ideas regarding battling facism. And yes, when it comes to racism I am willing (and capable) of fighting. Not with guns though, baseball-bats work just as fine.
I used to be with a group called AFA, "Anti-Fascistische Actie", and we ended up in quite a lot of fights with skinheads etc.

True. But on the other hand, the man has become an icon of socialism, which I think he'd be both surprised and amused about.

Same here. But like I said: I agree with che's idea of fighting facism, not with his ideas of world-wide revolution etc. So this really isn't the issue here.

In a twisted way, I respect him as well.... That man is SOOO devout, so certain in his beliefs that he can actually "transcend" his humanity and do terrible things... All in the name of God, of course.

In a way, it is exactly the same thing as most other martyrs and great leaders have done: surrendering your initial feelings to a "greater cause".

As far as I could see, there were no reasons for me to throw stones, my friend

 

You are quite right, Bas. And thats why I`m anti-american

A very few corrections:
They are evil in certain sense (i do not like to use such words when talking about history - there are NO good & bad guys - and here comes one difference in our thinking with the amis ) but not more evil than any other country. In that their government looks after their own interests and really doesnt care about all the moral non-sense we are discussing here. A FEW countries arent like that. mmmmok, i agree - lots arent - they serve to someone elses interests (usually USA nowadays ) like in my own country. but none acts solely because of morality - if it sometimes happens, it is to give satisfaction to its stupid moral people - only if the majority takes to the streets - all the rest is just propaganda. And the purpose of the latter is to prevent that same stupid moral population *ever to think* about disagreeing with its government - so it is usually full with morality. So is under Bush, so was under Stalin and under Hitler.


BTW IMHO propaganda in the USA is affecting people much more than, say, in Iraq because in Iraq it is dealt forcibly, while in the USA it is much finer and incorporated in their culture and moreover they actually think there is no propaganda. Believe me, I`ve lived in a "restricted society", albeit quite young, and the lack of "free press", etc. just trained people to think more over the data they are fed, to search for what is hidden behind, it really couldnt stop in any way people to see the truth, tell anecdotes and ridicule the system, etc. So I`m suspicious that the people in Iraq understand just as well what is going on, than you, glas (of course only those who have any time left beside trying to find something to eat). Now, I can watch american and european TVs and lots stuff really sticks into my eye, the very way they approach issues is distorting reality, but for one who has been raised with those TVs and newspapers, as we can see in this forum, he accepts them quite uncritically. Because they have shaped his very way of thinking from a kid.

oooh, im discoursing alot again


So if so many people dislike USA, it is not because it is more "evil" than anyone else, but because it has the powers to pursue its interests to a much further extent than anyone else. I guess 100 years ago the most hated state on the Earth was Great Britain. Today it is USA. In another 100 years maybe it will be someone else?

For me it is something horrifying! It means to destroy all other cultures, all the treasures they hide and one who was not born alike wont ever learn about.

But again it all depends on how one is educated. If you`re used only to your own culture and you think everything else sucks, and if you ever come touch in other culture you can view it only from your own way thus seeing things that are something ok for those people, or even something very reflecting their spirits, as a bad practice, evil, etc. just because it would be so in your society... You`d want to civilize them and make em all like you.

Moreover as is the case now USA against the arab world (and during the Cold war against the USSR) when you do not understand the other culture you have no idea what is the motivation of its people, you cannot be confident how will they behave in the future so you become totally paranoic and start preventive wars, ...and forceful democratizaion...

Unfortunatelly the power has been in the most dangerous culture since the Reneissance - the Western one, because it is expansionist in spirit and so destruct all it comes in contact, even without wars.

And yes, the other way round is possible - just look at India.

 

but they do it despite knowing they will harm innocent people. that is quite much.

Yugoslavia is really a bad example. The real retaliation against the Kosovo albanians was *induced by the bombings*. Note, BTW that serbian leaders showed restraint and mostly there was no killing of albanians (exceptions there are of course - and they were extensively used by western media) but displacing them into neibhoring countries. All this later produced the war in Macedonia. There shootings continue up to now. Thanks again to USA training albanian "terrorists"="freedom fighters". And if you ask for the real reason of the Kosovo war - it is because Serbia was the last country in Eastern Europe which continued to live the old way and didnt change to economical and political obedience to the USA in the 90s. (And Russia was too bothered in other matters to defend for her). (WTG!) Now it has.

So there is certain reason to support my country`s joining of NATO and even sending soldiers to Iraq - i`ll be safe that CIA wont attempt to create a rebel movement among the turkish population (they`ll have to work alot to stir their minds tho) trying to start civil war here too, so that it can openly involve later.

Unfortunately, i`m not really giving a shit if some day I`ll loose my life on some peak in the Rhodopes with Kalashnikov in arms if it is for the just cause of "Leave people alone!".

 

Gro, I read very little of UK newspapers and the only TV news i watch is the Channel 4 news at 7pm. Now you are living in the UK, perhaps it would be an idea if you actually watched the program yourself and based your opinions on facts, rather than on the presumption that all news in the UK is brainwashing and everyone in the UK meekly accepts that which is broadcast is fact.

You are in danger of sounding more ignorant than most people on these boards with such statements.

-glas-

 

Gro please read all my posts, especially one of my recent ones to devill. My statement was made in the context of the humanitarian aid that was given to the people opressed by Milosevic. I dont know anything about the political situation in the run up to the conflict in Yugoslavia so I have made no comment on that side.

I appreciate the political side of the situation was inextricably linked to the humanitarian aid provided but i prefer to see things in black and white. Had the UN not intervened, many many more people would have died or been displaced (imo). That alone made the intervention of the UN (with the US forming a major part) worthwhile.

-glas-

 

The most important is something similar to wisdom. Like an old man has the wisdom and manner that life has thought him, so an old people does.

Me too! I`m happy to be born in one quite old, although not as much as persians, and it has suffered alot. This is also important.

It is has a bitter and a sweet taste at the same time...

 

Oops, serbians here. I better shut up about Yugoslavia business then

Well, that was official policy of both US and UK military command. Bomb their civilians until they get fed up and turn down their governments (this was clearly spoken out in the plans of operation "Point Blank" - the bombing of my country, and the way bombing of Germany proceeded shows the same. Although I really cant imagine why they will bomb conquered Serbia? Against the cetnici?). Hasnt much changed until now, has it? We want Saddam or Milosevic down, so we will bomb their people.

I`d say this terror at its utmost.

How exactly? I cant remember in how many days exactly we overran all of Serbia then?

Mir, duso!