Russia-Georgia-Ottesia News Explanations PLEASE?

Discussion in 'Warbirds International' started by looseleaf, Aug 11, 2008.

  1. looseleaf

    looseleaf Well-Known Member

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    Missiles were already scheduled to be removed from Turkey a long time before.

    Longer range and more modern missiles had rendered the missile bases in Turkey too expensive and obsolete.

    The geopolitik game is far more complex than we know at the time. Only years and years later can we begin to understand the real devilishness of the players!
     
  2. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

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    This.
     
  3. Uncles

    Uncles Well-Known Member

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    It's confusing to me, the troops that were deployed there. Actually, it's interesting. The West says the attack was long planned, but if long planned, why use the 58th? I read the airborne 76th was there, but why did they stop if they wanted to destroy Mr. Sakass? I think Russia was cautious in this attack.
     
  4. PG monster

    PG monster FH Consultant

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  5. Boroda

    Boroda FH Community Officer

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    Airborne corps don't have heavy weapons. They are supposed to perform quite special comdat missions.

    4-5 batallions from 58th Army were moved towards the tunnel on Aug 3, when Georgians began their provocations. Last time this summer (in June IIRC) Georgians withdrew after Russian aviation made a few flights over the peace-keeping zone.

    It's interesting that Russia used Chechen special troops batallion Vostok (East) in Ossetia. Chechens are true champions in "summer biathlon with RPGs", plus they are definitely the most professional troops for such a terrain and street-fighting. And their reputation is even bigger then their skills :D so I think Georgians ran away in panic when they saw Chechen flags ;)

    It's funny that Osetin militia and Russian troops were outnumbered, I doubt that it was possible to deploy enough troops to match 75,000 Georgian army. American training, superior equipment, totally superior communication - it all didn't help Georgians to escape such a pathetic defeat. Looks like looting was really their main motivation. They got beaten by underarmed militia and drafted 19-year old boys riding ancient T-62s.
     
  6. Tzebra

    Tzebra Well-Known Member

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    Wonder how long it will be before the mega businessmen reign in their hot-headed politicians; bad for profit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2008
  7. hugo baskervill

    hugo baskervill Well-Known Member

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    I heard that Georgians weren't bad soldiers, but Russia has much better HQ, smaller and more mobile army with good plan ruins Georgian defense. Russians have quite more experienced HQ and soldiers than Georgia.

    I heard something about Vostok too. Quite good troops which carry some of Georgian equipment. If they fight against Russians they are only bloody terrorists who killed children and execute surrenders, but when they fight for Russians they are elite troops which little hard reputation.:D Do you think they changed their methods of war when they changed sides?
     
  8. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

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    They have to.
     
  9. Boroda

    Boroda FH Community Officer

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    Georgians had superior artillery, with known positions and targets set long lime ago. Anyway they lost "counter-battery" duels, witnesses say it was like one salvo - one Georgian battery knocked out.

    Again: GE soldiers are professionals, trained by Americans, and most of them with combat experience in Iraq. Russia sent ordinary conscripted boys, plus irregular Osetin militia... Looks like full-scale hostilities are quite different from anti-partisan war. And again we see a myth of "professional army" busted.

    You missed my sarcasm :D

    Their methods of war are OK, the problem is with treating civilians and POWs, but in Ossetia they were watched for this. They they managed to hijack some American cars though :D Looks like they are modern Cossack units ;) Chechens are great warriors, it's well-known for over 150 years, they even were Russian Emperor's personal guards.
     
  10. grobar

    grobar Well-Known Member

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    some people here believe they have the right to feel threatened by Russia's actions, while they deny Russians the right to feel threatened by western actions.


    Did this make any sense? :)




    Just tell me:
    1. If these anti-missiles, now accompanied by Patriot missiles, are not meant as a threat to Russia, why did USA and Poland hurriedly sign the deal just a few days after the Georgia war. The Americans and Polish were bickering about the details for years, and now magic - they all agreed in a few days; it was at the same time as their officials were saying all around that Russia should be punished for its adventure in Georgia.
    huh?
    2. If this shield is purely aimed at "terrorists and Iranians", why are exactly Poland and Cz so eager to implement it? For this noble aim they sacrifice part of their sovereignty and risk becoming targets of the angry russians, not to mention terrorists and Iranians. IMHO if Poland and Cz stay put they are maybe the countries in Europe with smallest ever chance to be even noticed by the terrorists. Most of middle-eastern rage is aimed at the western colonialist countries not the former communist friends.
    What's in it for the Poles and Czechs if the radar is not aimed at Russia?

    3. Americans euphemistically say that the system is aimed against "rogue nations" (Pentagon speech). Which other nation out there is remaining rogue, apart from Iran?
    What if the Russian nation is soon named rogue too?
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2008
  11. Zembla JG13

    Zembla JG13 FH Beta Tester

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    Speaking for myself here. If my words were interpreted as such... then I clearly didn't do a good job of explaining them.

    There's a difference between openly saying you're targeting something, and placing a missile shield.

    I'm not denying anybody anything. But the Russian argument that those missiles could be armed with nukes seems sorta moot, especially considering they don't even need to have missiles that close to Russia, because they have plenty of others they can use just the same anyway, only a tad farther away.

    Anyway, call me naieve for thinking it's a defensive weapon, but I can call you naieve for believing the exact opposite.

    Because Russia was taking offensive action against Georgia and Poland and Czech wanted to boost their air defenses? And if that meant taking in ABM's, all the better? Why should Poland or Czech not have a missile defense system?

    A shield is per definition aimed at nobody. Why should Poland and Czech let who they anger influence their decisions? Is it a case of "do what you want, but you better not piss of big brother"? Don't you think them "sacrificing sovereignty" this way, is the exact same way as them not taking the missile shield and sacrificing their sovereignty to decide themselves what's best for their own country?

    Most of the middle-Eastern rage is aimed at the countries who readily came to America's aid at the point in time where it was clear they were going to pursue goals beyond retaliation for 9-11.

    The rogue nations would probably be "axis of evil" countries, like North Korea etc. I very much doubt Russia would be considered rogue, seeing as it doesn't fit the profile. And, to use that word again in a different context, is also much too high profile. Russia is visibible enough to make sure the US wouldn't go in alone. And even if America's interested in a war with Russia, they wouldn't find much people sharing that thought in Europe.

    -Z
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2008
  12. grobar

    grobar Well-Known Member

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    with all my respects, zembla, but you are very good at twisting arguments
     
  13. sebbo

    sebbo Well-Known Member

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    FFS.... Let the Yanks and Russkies deploy an anti-missile shield TOGETHER, maybe that way we'd finally get to see some cooperation and release of tension.

    As far as Georgia goes: South-Ossetia should become part of Russia, no doubt about that. But the Russian reaction to the Georgian attack was a bit over-the-top, perhaps. In all, I think the Georgians carry most of the blame. And I am sorry about having to say that, because I do feel sympathy for the Georgians.
     
  14. bizerk

    bizerk Well-Known Member

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    Ah screw it! lets just start flinging nukes at each other and get it over with. In the process most will be killed off and the remaining few will have lots of land with few and far between nieghbors, then we will not have to care about borders anylonger. Sound nice? But really I think Russia should calm down and relax. Let Georgia be and stop butting in on Polands buissiness. Neither were or are going to be threatening to you.
     
  15. Fucketeer

    Fucketeer Banned

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    What about you, that haven't answered my question about your nicks?
     
  16. bizerk

    bizerk Well-Known Member

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    He didn't twist a darn thing. He responded very eloquently. My response would have been more colorful but along the same lines as his.
     
  17. grobar

    grobar Well-Known Member

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    then it must the difference of cultures and perceptions
     
  18. grobar

    grobar Well-Known Member

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    a-ha, so this is how Medvedev will respond to the US check in poland, a very clever tit-for-tat indeed!


    just guess how happy would be israel of the prospect that IAF wont be able to bomb the surrounding countries at will every few years, anymore.

    yup, apparently they hit a soft spot because israel's master got vocal instantly:
    PS: There is also speculations that Russians might threaten to expand the old soviet naval base in the Syrian port of Tartus and station a nuclear navy there.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2008
  19. Boroda

    Boroda FH Community Officer

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    Again: we have offered our facilities and technology, including an Early Warning radar station at Caspian sea, right next door to Iran. Americans refused.

    What else should we do to cooperate with them?! Give all Russian nukes under American control?!

    Over-the-top?!

    Russia sent two motor-riflemen regiments total, plus some additional forces, most of them with conscripted personell (19 years old boys) to counter an attack of Georgian army that was trained by Americans, equipped by many countries from Ukraine and Cz to the US, and had combat experience in Iraq.

    I say - outnumbered at least 2 to 3. Georgian army just fled after they faced a task-force acting according to the book, not poor Iraqi/Ossetian civilians. You know, old Soviet school. We didn;t even need Chechen experience, this guys were like sitting ducks. They suddenly understood that they are not the only ones to have howitzers and MLRS. What a surprise...! They had better keep old Soviet commanders instead of American instructors who taught them how to wage war against unarmed civilians.

    I also feel sympathy for Georgians, it's not their fault that they had staged elections and got that neck-tie eating baby hitler for president as a Christmas present from US Department of State.
     
  20. Boroda

    Boroda FH Community Officer

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    ....Perceptions!!! Kolio, thanks a lot! A right word finally :)

    As for a deal with Syria - how do they take it wrong!? It's about purely defensive weapons! :D

    OTOH Israeli officials said they stopped all weapon trade with Georgia because they don't sell weapons to countries in conflict.