Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

Discussion in 'Warbirds International' started by fatale, Apr 1, 2008.

  1. fatale

    fatale Well-Known Member

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    Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    Why was so dangerous emergency landings with Typhoons and Tempests, mainly to the sea? I read that only ~3 pilots survived sea ditch with Typhoon IRL...
     
  2. looseleaf

    looseleaf Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    How many water landings/ditching attempts were recorded?

    Other than the usual considerations of relative damage and condition of the air frame. I would not be surprised if the water landing/ditching recommended procedures/instructions were not accurate.

    My opinion is that the design of the air intakes, the center of gravity and the aerodynamic effects of being near the water contributed to a very deadly situation where the plane would be pulled-down in a sudden nose first drop.

    I would like to read the instructions for an emergency water landing for those planes.

    The boundary layer (around the last 20 feet or so)over water was not very well understood back in those day(British understanding- that is.).

    It was obvious the Brits had not understood Von Schlichting's works.
     
  3. Zembla JG13

    Zembla JG13 FH Beta Tester

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    Re: Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    But looseleaf, what you're saying implies there's less lift near the water surface, whereas it's actually the contrary. Look at the Russian experiments with wing-in-ground aircraft, only possible because of the added lift close to the waterline.

    <Z>
     
  4. looseleaf

    looseleaf Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    Well there could be. What I am trying to say is that there are very special conditions at near the water.
    Von Schlichting wrote about it.

    In the Russian experiments was the water calm? What were the effects of waves? Winds?

    Do you remember that trans channel human powered flight of many years ago; "Gossamer Albatros"?

    The pilot/driver was about to give-up as the energy required to pedal was too much for him at near the water.

    He decided to abort and climbed to around 7 meters so he could execute a 180 degree turn to go back.

    Upon climbing to about 25 feet, he discovered the effort was drastically reduced and he decided to continue.

    There are many factors that determine the "flyability" in that layer of air near a body of water. There can be no generality about it.

    Plus the discussion is also subjective as the the flight characteristics of each aircraft in question.
    Different planes will react differently.
    For instance; does the pilot close all the heater exhaust outlets if the engine is at idle? Does he cut engine just before touch-down?
    That layer of hot air exhaust under the plane(engine cooling) counts as a drag reducer.
    The plane's handling characteristics could change violently while transitioning from familiar air to the boundary layer right at the water.
    No matter what the air is like, it is different. There could be a sudden "push" or "pull" and the pilots' sudden reflex , rather instinctive reaction could be the wrong one for that situation. Just like control reversal first experienced in trans sonic flight. It could kill you without anyone ever knowing what it was.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2008
  5. fatale

    fatale Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    Problem with huge radiator was first what crossed my mind but I heard that was danger of explosion or fire (on the sea??? hmmm).
     
  6. Vadim Maksimenko

    Vadim Maksimenko Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    My wild guess: those planes have too high landing speed and wide air intakes low in the nose section. On touchdown in the water those intakes could produce violent nose-over momentum, killing a pilot with extreme negative Gs by entering water nearly vertical after touchdown.

    An option could be full rudder on the entry to produce wing-forward attitude. Broken ribs, arms because of side-ways Gs could be less fatal than ripped into rubbish blood vessels in the brain because on negative Gs.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2008
  7. --stec

    --stec Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    Screw the intake and landing speed, it's all about the misterious "looseleaf zone" 20 feet above water. One guy from air warrior bulletin board says that many typhoons disappeared in a glimmer of strange blue light while trying to ditch at water! It's 100% credible source as he read it somewhere on this site about disappearing planes by this guy who knows all about it. It's known about two or three cases though, when captain america appeared from nowhere and rescued the poor limey bastard before the powers of hell could acquire another soul.
    Let's talk about medical science or paleontology now. Looseleaf?
     
  8. looseleaf

    looseleaf Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    Sure, let's.:D

    First put away your comic books and take out your crayons.

    What does this shape remind you of?

    Now I am going to take this tool of mine and make some measurements of your head.

    Do you know what the word "Phrenology" means?


    But seriously stec, read-up on the subject. Can you get a copy of "Boundary Layer Theory" by Von Schlichting?
    It's published by McGraw Hill and if you're lucky enough you might even find an original copy there in Europe.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2008
  9. Zembla JG13

    Zembla JG13 FH Beta Tester

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    Re: Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    Why are you juggling that name though?

    A boundary layer is something very universal. As far back as 1904 people understood that airflow near a surface is something much different to airflow anywhere else, cfr. the work of Prandtl. Prandtl is one of the founders of fluïdum mechanics, and has done pioneering work for fluid dynamics.

    That said, the result will always be a matter of fluïdum mechanics. Because that's what you use to describe the fluïdum the plane flies through. How the plane interacts with the air is called aerodynamics, and has nothing to do with Von Schlichting. So, the fluïdum changes, the plane doesn't, I'm sure we can agree on that.

    What changes, is probably a lot more turbulence, which is normal, because that's what happens near any type of surface, because of water vaporising at every temperature and because of the high warmth capacity of water, you'll be having a differentiating velocity flux as well. Even more so, it's both non-stationary, and differing in function of time.

    Now I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than it would seem at first glance, a lot of dynamics etc is, however, it's still not like it's going to be behaving wildly differently, in such a way that they couldn't predict it. Sure, they didn't have a full theory about how things may respond, and aerodynamics was a wet-finger science, but they could by and large know what to expect. I mean, how else do you think they made floater planes etc without having them crash? :)

    <Z>
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2008
  10. gandhi

    gandhi Well-Known Member

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    when the median is mean

    :deal:

    sure, there was turbulence

    but an average alt of 1.5 metres? kinda lays to rest the whole theory of getting to 25 feet and finding it easier

    one would tend to think he would stay up that high at least most of the journey if it was easier, nomasayin?

    but looseleaf has found some german düd whom he thinks is in agreement with him

    every1 knows an argument supported by "von xxxxxx" is invincible
     
  11. rudeboy

    rudeboy Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    Maybe the fatalities are not, at all, linked to any aerodynamic fancy fuckin word type names and shit, like you fuckin genius are sayin, eh?
    Maybe it's about hitting things at high speeds. Things like, oh, water and stuff, eh?



    stop looking at me like that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2008
  12. -ALW-

    -ALW- Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    woaa [​IMG]
     
  13. -ALW-

    -ALW- Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    What's the speed required to keep the Tempest/Typhoon airborn?
     
  14. -exec-

    -exec- FH Consultant

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  15. kangaa

    kangaa Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    Have you considered that with a bent front end that maybe the canopy gets stuck and they all drowned or they all whacked their heads were out cold and drowned or the seat belts malfunctioned after hitting the water and they drowned or they got out and were eaten by a pack of sharks.
     
  16. bizerk

    bizerk Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    Here, check it yourself bud <S> bullet (pilot's notes a tad lower on the page.)

    http://www.tailwheel.nl/h/hawkertyphoon/index.html
     
  17. looseleaf

    looseleaf Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    OK:

    Von Schlichting book along with "Aircraft Structures" by Perry are some of the first books students of aerodynamics/aeronautics have to read when I went to school.
    Since some of you here want references before you can believe or trust anything that is shared with you as far as information is concerned.

    Now going back to my first response I was only trying to get across the idea that after setting all the other considerations aside such as: the pilot being not being 100% in capacity, the condition of the aircraft, like someone else said that even the canopy could be jammed, the seat belts stick, the pilot is rendered unconscious or incapacitated by the g-forces and smashing against the insides of the cockpit, that there could be a fundamental misunderstanding of the boundary layer near the surface of the water by the designers who gave the pilots instructions that resulted in a violent smash into the water.

    One other reference as to the great "British aerodynamic engineering" of WW2:
    Did anyone read about the "leg bag" designed by the British for paratroopers?
    In every case when used by American paratroopers the bags ripped-off as soon as they jumped out of the plane.

    Or did anyone read about the "emergency" exit in some British bombers that were too small for a man wearing a parachute?
     
  18. gandhi

    gandhi Well-Known Member

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    superstitions

    u see this?:

    [​IMG]

    they hav one of these at every airport

    pilots will tell u its a glideslope thingie to help on approach, which is true

    but there is no coincidence why it is ~25 feet tall

    this pole is hollow and is filled with a mixture of rabbit's feet, four leaf clovers and other charms

    it has been shown that airports without the charms suffer very high accident rates in the mysterious "looseleaf layer"
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2008
    1 person likes this.
  19. whodaphool

    whodaphool Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tempest & Typhoon- emergency landings

    Hey Looseleaf,

    Do yourself a favour and go back to school.

    These flaming baboons not only don't understand shit, but they feel so intimidated they reject anything and anyone that brings up anything that could be educational or informative.

    You are trying to teach pigs to sing:
    straining your voice and annoying the pigs.
     
  20. whodaphool

    whodaphool Well-Known Member

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    Re: superstitions

    This is the gandhi flame-o-fag-o-meter- how much can I suck today and how much I can ram up my ass gauge.

    A self made monument to gandhi's worthlessness, to humanity and this forum.

    Another pitiful attention-getter from a total nebbish.

    God damn, you really suck.

    I'm wasting my time here, I'll just have to get to your house and beat your ass, just for fun.

    Keep wearing the same jacket , we'll meet soon enough.