Topic about nations, Poles, Germans, CzechoSlovaks, Russians, war and power

OK? I'm interesting about all opinions from Germans, Russians and Poles about situation during and after WWII. I need more subjective views to create one almost objective view for me.

I start:
Poles were our neighbours, and we have some rupture about Tesin before WWII so our relation gone colder, and we use weapons. When Mnichov comes, we have a lot of problems, Slovakia wants separate yourself, Germans in Sudets wants be part of Germany(our bunkers were in Sudets) and Poles want some area too, unfortunatelly. After war Poles didnt like see Russian soldiers in their country. But we like Russians here(our Czech units were part of Rusian army too). Now relation with Poles is good(except some ruptures in WB ), we have similar language and respect for other nation.

We was about 300 years under German control, our language was almost forgotten, Germans didnt respect our nation a lot, but still a lot of Austro-Hungarian industry was in our country. So for this years many Czechs image Germans like evil and cruel men. Czechs really didnt like Germans in this time. After WWII there was some revenge on Germans in Sudets, it is sad part of our history. 50 years after WWII i must say that we made mistake, but if Germans didnt left Sudets, there could be more violence. Our current relation is good, Germans lost WWII and they sorry that, we chase out Germans and imho many Czechs sorry that too, fortunatelly not many Germans demand their houses back.

Russians are most interesting nation. our legions fight together with Russians in WWI against Germany for czar, i saw in document that some citizens remember Czech army in Russian area. But unfortunatelly when mother Russia fall after revolt Russians want kill our little army in Russia, but their forces were confused and unorganised. We occupy trans siberia train and fight so long that Russians permit our legions return home on ships from east Russia. During WWII we fight together too, but there werent to many men like in WWI. fter end of war we hail Russian soldiers here and ve vote for communism. Unfortunatelly when we want left communism in 1968 SSSR and other nations from Warsaw theatre attack our country, we didnt fight, because we didnt want blood revolt and we was trying to persuade soldiers that there arent any counter-revolution...we fault, soldiers were here till 1989 comes. They occupy us and only some blind showy Russians can say that they liberate us in 1968. Now russia is so far for some good relation but our relation is neutral, some Czechs still remember 1968. I think still there arent good democracy in Russia, imho Putin made personality cult here, but it is only my personal opinion, i dont know why Russians must have only Czars or dictators, maybe some nation special. Now Russia have really good weapons and army, and i hope Russians are inteligent men that they forbit use weapons in some war for power.

We havent a lot of experience with USA, we know only our big brother SSSR, but some man from west can write here some opinion.

btw please, Poles and Russians, forget your 1000 year war now and if it is possible write here only opinion primary, but i think there were flame war soon.

Of course write here your personal opinions on nations in your country, for example Brazilian didnt know too much about Poles, Czechs and Russians a lot so he can write some about USA.

 

the way i see it its all about power
who has power is the aggresor
it may be a conflict for a piece of land, like tesin for example, or whole nation control - depends of the military force aggresor has
its never like that the power isnt used in an aggresive way

of course it has always been explained as 'reclaiming the land of ancestors'
the problem is, its very complicated in most cases
if one territory belongs to one country for a long time, its normal that citizens of that country might have move there and settle
the native residents will accomodate with that more and more as time passes, whenever they like ir or not
for some this may take longer, for some shorter - its a matter of standard of living

so cultures and nations mix with each other, all of them has their own preferences about country they would like to live in
thats why populating new territory with own population is so important, after annexing it


anyway, id rather wish to think about history as our shared, not too bright, experience
no one is saint here, but we should be able to understand why balance is so important and dont push it either way

remember 'power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'?
its the essence of our history, isnt it?

 

On a large scale, it appears Carl von Clausewitz was right.

War is merely a continuation of politics. And as long politics are about power and influence, war is about it too. Just another dirty instrument in a dirty business.

 

"War is not merely a political act but a real political instrument, a continuation of political intercourse, a carrying out of the same by other means."


this is good readin:
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/jfq_pubs/1810.pdf
Ya wouldn't want to read Cluswitz's stuff. It is some tough readin. And often misquoted or quotes taken out of context.

 

IMO he's wrong. The threat of war is a political tool, but the war itself is a whole another ballgame...

 

Czechia (?) & German around WWII

I would say before WWII startet your land was part of the german(ian) Reich ( sry for that word ), not of Germany, but in Austria, parts of Poland & Hungary many germans lived, not only Kafka ...
As i was in prague last time ( before the last flood there ) i saw a lot of "german like" in this town.
For the annection of sudets area and the repression 1938 - 1945 i feel angry.
What happened after Germany lost the war, i think it was ok so. Other options, i´m not sure if it was possible, like you said.
Be sure that not all people in Germany think like the "sudetendeutsche Landsmannschaft"! The majority in Germany didn´t want any land or any house back! I think i could say that, cause my grandpa was born 1925 in poland ( not in the german areas ), lived near Plock at river Wisla ( sry frog, i know that not the right L, i know L with / ). He never feel angry about polish people that he have to leave his home, he ever told me poland lost a lot of land in the east & those people there have to live now somewhere else ... I know a lot of old people who lost their home in WWII, but now after years no one will go back and steal a polish or czech family their home.
And pls be sure that here in germany most people would not allow that.
In WWII many sad thinks happened, but from both sides, and in my eyes Czechs was relative human to the germans after the war. ( I could understand that poland was very sad ... )

situation now:

We are in the european union now, i think that is the best way, many thinks bad in EU but it´s the best way, having the same rights, same money, same chances, maybe sometime the same foreignpolitic. So i hope our lands never find a reason for another War. I also hope that russia, ukrain, belorussia ... etc. will be parts of the european union one day ... .
I like the possibility to drive to eastern ( personally i say middle - cause east europe is samara, ural, caucasus ... ) europe, without a passport, without strong controls on the border, some day in future with the same money. This sommer i was camping in poland, lithuania, latvia & estonia and i was very impressed, nobody said "arghhh a fucking german" like in england years ago, everybody was friendly and helpfull.

personally:

30 years old, from Brandenburg in east germany
i don´t feel as a german cause the land i was born in was deleted in 1990, now i feel as a Brandenburgian und European.

gossie

sry for my bad english ...

 

nice reply, man

 

Politics is talktalk.
War is fightfight.
IT IS BETTER TO 'TALK-TALK' RATHER THAN 'WAR-WAR.'
W.S. Churchill

 

I hate it when people quote Clausewitz on that idiotiocally obvious tautology. He might as well have pointed out that the sky is blue.

As for my opinion on WWII and its aftermath, well ... there isn't much to say really. What Germany has done is unforgivable and the only innocent Germans are those that were only children or not even born yet (or even opposed the Nazis).
Even if some of the things the victors of WWII did weren't exactly moral, considering all the suffering our country has brought unto the world, it is more than understandable that everyone had just had it up to here with Germany. You can't really argue with that.

 

suck suck blood blood war war exterminate!


(this is good for metal song, no?)

 

What I never understood is why Czechs and Slovaks decided to separate...

As for "democracy" and Putin's "cult of personality":

1) Democracy never works.

2) You, guys, don't understand why some of us are against Putin.

Look, Yeltsin was a "democratic" president, supported by the West. Do you know that in 1993 he dismissed Supreme Soviet (parliament), got offcially impeached, and started a war in the middle of Moscow, burning the parliament building and killing thousands? Is this an example of "democracy"? If it is - then I am for totalitarism. I don't like machinegun fire in my neighbourhood, and tanks entering the city wake me up at 5AM. (each time "democratic" Gorby called tanks to Moscow - they passed right behind my windows on Leningrad highway).

 

It is quieter, entire nieghbourhoods are left un-disturbed and can stay sleeping, when the police come in the middle of the night and pick up 'enemies of the revolution.'

Democracy is not a 'He did this' it is a they or an we did this.
[rhet] Was Yeltsyn a dictactor? Was the army sworn to obey him?

get used to a new concept:
Democratic governments spread responsibility around [and also, blame].

A great example of democratic institutions being misjudged is the ones in the USA. People keep saying "Busche this and Busche that. Busche did this. Busche did that."
Well, busche didn't. he is a head of state, he is not the state. he has to answer to other levels of government, some of which have veto powers.
Would you really rather have a dictator where the only checks and balances are the gun and the knife?

We the people like uncomplicated portrayals and we like easy answers. We like to lay the blame in a simple way, easy to understand.

Hitler did it.
Busche did it.
Stalin did it.
Mao did it.
MacMillan did it.
Mitterand did it.

If you want changes, just get rid of The Boss. [forgetting, of course, the machine behind the boss, which is very difficult to change, without widespread pograms]

nevermind.

 

Slovaks decided, that their own goverment will be better and Czechs didnt make any problems with separation. If Slovaks want it so why not? They are our brothers and still imho Slovakia isnt foreing country for us.

i didnt know what you said. So now i understand why you dont believe in democracy.

I think there is a "democracy" and democracy. So why you didnt vote against Yeltsin in next election?

Do you believe in Putin? If not, you can vote for another person. If there isnt another person there is something really wrong.

W. Churchill said: Democracy is the worst way how to govern, unfortunatelly nobody think out better way.

 

Putin in Prague. "Occupation of CzechoSlovakia in 1968 was tragedy."
Our president was talking with president Putin in Russian language.
Czech republic give back the picture of Ivan Kramski(sry if i wrote it wrong) "Head of peasant".

Imho this is the step on the right way, maybe first Russian politician, who know that 1968 wasn't "liberation". Maybe this isn't the greatest thing for Russians, but for Czechs it is quite big.

 

Ok, my point of view.
Before end of WWI there was no Poland. We were enslaved for 123 years. We were divided between three nations: west part - Germany, south Austro-Hungary and east Czar Russia. And we were most oppresed by germans and russian at that time. For example german 'great' leader Bismarck had policy for poles - 'aus rotten' (eradicate). Ok... First WW end's, Poland is free. In 1920 russians (soviet russia) decided to, hehe, recap polish territory and we forced them to leave. At this point most of our nation dislikes both nationalities, which is understandable. Now, about Czech: it is true that we were not saint but it seems 'minor conflict' to all this mess, and only minority of us now know that we were assholes about you these days. And now picture time in poland between First and Second WW. Bloodthirsty soviets from east, nazists from west, not good relation from south (only romania seemd to be an ally).
Ok, Second war is starting, 1sep 1939 germans striked poland then 17sep soviets attacked from east. Anyone who is trying to escape to romania is internated. Our allies from west - France and England are sitting and watching (however they declared war on germany). And again poland is under occupation and opressed by both nations. ironically we were fighting back. As usual.
War ened. Three nations were discussing fate of poland, and we were sold to russians. Poland became comunistic, even if most of poles didn't want to. 1968, warsaw pact invades czech. Well, we had nothing to say, as any other 'non-soviet' nations; moscow ordered, we obeyed. What a shame. life goes on...
And now, we are free, our relations with south (slovakia and czech) are warm. I guess a lot of us don't trust russia and for germans we are reserved. Every children in school is taught that germans and russians attacked us in the past several times, and it is the main factor in our relationships. Sad.

 

I never quite understood this. How can there be any excuse for expelling complete ethnic minority not to mention killings and all violence. IMO it was a brutal act with many people who were good citizens of your country hurt and it killed part of charachter of your country forever.

I have pretty much similar image about polish actions against their german population after WW2. Trials against individuals i understand, not violence to ethnic groups. Personal revenge by violence isn't allowed in laws of our societies and shouldn't be tolerated no matter what language person being as target is speaking.

Germany, well it's been talked about. Everyone knows so need to repeat. Many similar assholes there as in coutries above. Prolly in schools you make sure everyone knows what germans did to your grandparents (poles and czechs). That's good. I hope you can teach about your own actions against ethnic minorities also.

What i see when i view middle european conflicts is unrational greed for territory. Every country attacks their neighbour like scavengers if promised a little piece of land by some big guy. They never seem to join to defend eachother.

Balkans is even worse.

That's all negative thoughts. I should go for a smoke... I have plenty of positive thoughts about all these people too.

 

I think most of us do. Putin isn't liked outside Russia as i see it. He rules like a tzar.

 

I agree, it was our great mistake. We chase out germans because they welcomed nazi germans and they were reason which Hitler came to our country. There were a lot of good citizens. But if they didn't leave us, there could be more violence. Imo Czechs are quite bitches(and it isn't only my impression), after war the most loud voices were Czechs who serve to nazis, true heroes who fought were more placable. But as i said, this solved problem of debatable area.

I know many of suddet Germans, and i must say that they are quite placable to this injury. So THX )

This point about many small nations which fight alone is true, but fortunatelly there isn't any nation which wants attack us(i hope), i didn't know a lot about Polish army but our army is small, bad organized and equipped.

I'm saying it again and again, we must make federation of Hungary, Slovakia, Czechia and Poland if we want be effective in deffensive, I haven't any illusions about NATO threate, i remember bad experience with allies, which are so far away, but Hugary, Poland, Slovakia and Czechia threate could be successful in war.

to Lesiu: cc, I have same experience(but Czechs weren't so unremitting warriors, we lost battle or two and...), our nations have bad place here, between Germany and Russia In next nations moving we must go more west or south

 

What about the Klingons?

 

Yes, lot of shit was happened in europe in middle of XX century.
But now ppl are smarter.
Anyone tried to read mein kampf?
I have tried
Its so boring, stupid and annoying, so I didnt make it, just a few pages.
Now, 1939-45 experience & technology explosion gives us guarantee it will not happend anymore.
Just ppl get another level
Well I'm afraid islam, this culture is closed and stopped in last 1k years.
I was last year in turkey holidays. Lot of russians there.
AFAIK its the most modern of islam countries, however i felt strange.
No girls there, only men working. Those men were friendly of course, but they had hmm something in eyes. It makes me attention. I have nothing against turkey, but i was afraid them. Otherwise i have a lot against russians, but i wasnt afraid them.
Well a was in germany too. 10 years ago. Well i was shocked there were no 180cm, 90kg, blond hair, blue eye men. Just normal ppl, families, kids, mothers & fathers. Many internationals. Russians, turkey, black men (and women ), even poles.
Damn what a irony. Germans always want them pure nation, and fought for it hard.
Now its probably most mixed nation in europe. Other hand, poles always didnt give a shit for pure nationality, and now its probably most pure nation country in Europe
Well, in germany, wast too clean and too "ordnug" for me. I need a little mess i think.
Everywhere is good, but in home is the best, you know guys, remember it
What about poles, i think they are too proud, non tolerate, racist, hostile against germany & russia. Very hard to be controlled (damn Duck-team now, kinda joke nation last years). They love japan, and usa. (I like usa, but i'm far from to like japan). Polish women love black men & islam. Well i think most beauteaful girls all over the world are russian girls.
Czech rep - we are friendly (now), and sweden too (always were). Ukraine, hmm, we wish to have such solid neighbor in the east. They could be strong enough to do not afraid us (and not hate us in result) Lithuania - they hate us same us we hate ger & rus. Slovakia, hmm, i'm not sure i can recognize slovak from czech.