Ukraine...leave them alone!

Discussion in 'Off Topic International' started by -ALW-, Mar 2, 2014.

  1. -ALW-

    -ALW- Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2001
    Messages:
    2,086
    Location:
    Minot, North Dakota, USA
    Wow, this is amazing. What is Putin' thinkin'? He must want WWIII, starting in Ukraine. I think the rest of the world should assist the people of the Ukraine, but, really....not take over. The USA is good at doing that, and ruining things. Kerry should know that.

    http://webcenters.netscape.compuserve.com/news/story/1001/20140302/0253

    Hundreds of gunmen surround Ukraine military base
    DALTON BENNETT and DAVID McHUGH
    Associated Press

    PEREVALNE, Ukraine (AP) — As hundreds of armed men surrounded a Ukrainian military base in Crimea on Sunday, world leaders and Ukraine's new prime minister urged Russian President Vladimir Putin to pull back his military.

    U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry called Russia's military incursion into Ukraine "an incredible act of aggression" — comments that came a day after Russian forces took over the strategic Black Sea peninsula of Crimea from Ukraine without firing a shot.

    In Kiev, the Ukrainian capital, Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said there was no reason for Russia to invade Ukraine and warned that "we are on the brink of disaster."

    But so far, his new government and other countries have been powerless to react to Russian military tactics. Armed men in uniforms without insignia have moved freely about the peninsula, occupying airports, smashing equipment at an air base and besieging a Ukrainian infantry base.

    Putin has defied calls from the West to pull back his troops, insisting that Russia has a right to protect its interests and those of Russian-speakers in Crimea and elsewhere in Ukraine.

    Russia has long wanted to reclaim the lush Crimean Peninsula, which was part of Russia until 1954. It's Black Sea Fleet is stationed there and nearly 60 percent of Crimea's residents identify themselves as Russian.

    Ukraine's population of 46 million has divided loyalties between Russia and Europe, with much of western Ukraine advocating closer ties with the EU, while eastern and southern regions like Crimea look to Russia for support.

    Unidentified troops pulled up to the Ukrainian military base at Perevalne on the Crimean Peninsula in a convoy that included at least 13 trucks and four armored vehicles with mounted machine guns. The trucks carried 30 soldiers each and had Russian license plates.

    A dozen Ukrainian soldiers, some with clips in their rifles, placed a tank at the base's gate, leaving the two sides in a tense standoff.

    Ukraine's acting president, Oleksandr Turchynov, announced late Saturday that he had ordered Ukraine's armed forces to be at full readiness because of the threat of "potential aggression." He also said he had ordered stepped-up security at nuclear power plants, airports and other strategic infrastructure.

    But the U.S. and other Western governments have few options to counter Russia's military moves.

    In Brussels, NATO's secretary general said Russia had violated the U.N. charter with its military action in Ukraine, and he urged Moscow to "de-escalate the tensions." NATO chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen spoke before a meeting Sunday of the alliance's political decision-making body to discuss the crisis.

    Ukraine is not a NATO member, meaning the U.S. and Europe are not obligated to come to its defense. But Ukraine has taken part in some alliance military exercises and contributed troops to its response force.

    Kerry, interviewed on Sunday news shows in the U.S., raised the possibility of boycotting the G-8 summit, which is to be held in June in Sochi, the Russia resort that just hosted the Winter Olympics. He also discussed visa bans, asset freezes, and trade and investment penalties. Kerry said he spoke with foreign ministers for G-8 and other nations on Saturday, and says everyone is prepared 'to go to the hilt" to isolate Russia.

    President Barack Obama spoke with Putin by telephone for 90 minutes Saturday and expressed his "deep concern" about "Russia's clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity," the White House said. Obama warned that Russia's "continued violation of international law will lead to greater political and economic isolation."

    In Moscow, thousands marched Sunday in a pro-invasion rally one day after Russia's parliament gave Putin a green light to use military force in Ukraine. At least 10,000 people bearing Russian flags marched freely through the city, while dozens of people demonstrating on Red Square against an invasion of Ukraine were quickly detained by Russian riot police.

    The new Ukrainian government came to power last week following months of pro-democracy protests against a pro-Russian president, Viktor Yanukovych, and his decision to turn Ukraine toward Russia instead of the European Union. Yanukovych fled to Russia after more than 80 people died, most of them demonstrators killed by police. He insists he's still president.

    Since then, tensions have risen sharply between the two capitals.

    The Interfax news agency reported the speaker of Crimea's legislature, Vladimir Konstantinov, as saying the local authorities did not recognize the government in Kiev. He said a planned referendum on March 30 would ask voters about the region's future status.

    The White House said the U.S. will suspend participation in preparatory meetings for the Group of Eight economic summit planned.

    French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said on Europe 1 radio that planning for the summit should be put on hold. France "condemns the Russian military escalation" in Ukraine, and Moscow must "realize that decisions have costs," he said Sunday.

    "We are on a very dangerous track of increasing tensions," German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said in a statement. "(But) "it is still possible to turn around. A new division of Europe can still be prevented."

    _____

    McHugh reported from Kiev, Ukraine. AP correspondent Greg Keller contributed from Paris.
     
  2. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    29,825
    Location:
    Moscow,Russia
    I can try to guess.
    My opinion:

    This situation is a Lose/Lose one for Russia.
    He can only choose from bad and worse scenarios.

    1. Russia do nothing and will have a whole hostile nationalistic Ukraine in a 5-10 years on Russia border. Like Latvia but much bigger and more and more hostile as time will pass. Of course there is also a possibility of civil war to consider.
    2. Russia will help eastern Ukraine to break free and will have friendly buffer of semi-independent Easter Ukraine parts (mostly Russian population) between hostile western Ukraine and Russia.

    Why? After revolution Kiev is controlled by extreme right wing of Ukrainian nationalists (i wonder if USA gov and some EU leaders expected this after decades of direct support to these organisations?) while there are many millions of Russians still living in there (as you know at least half of the Ukrainian territory is former Russian).
    Another point to consider: Ukraine is collapsing economically. If left alone it will be disaster for all of it populace instead of half, and source of regional instability for decades.
    I don't think Putin will economically save hostile western Ukraine (that's up for their USA/EU masters now), but he will do it for friendly east Ukraine.

    mr. Putin is not a dumb one and i hope this mess will end as peaceful as it could.

    [​IMG]

    P.S. Russia support territorial integrity of Ukraine and do not want to annex any part of it. Even Crimea.
    Instead, people of Crimea (most of it is Russians) want to break off from collapsing Ukraine and join more prosperous Russia.
    Or at the very least get extended autonomy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
  3. FranzAugust

    FranzAugust Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    1,444
    Location:
    Germany
    ALW is watching too much TV :D
     
  4. -ALW-

    -ALW- Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2001
    Messages:
    2,086
    Location:
    Minot, North Dakota, USA

    You mean, like Georgia? I think Putin and his friends expected and planned for this, and just want their land/industry back, with hopes to gain "more" further down the road. Resistance from within.
    Ukraine I suppose, could take over Russia within 5-10 years, even with their collapsed economy. Their ideals for a republic are stronger. :dura:

    Just trying to point out some obvious observations. :)
     
  5. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    29,825
    Location:
    Moscow,Russia
    More or less, Georgia + Abkhazia/South Ossetia.
    Except there is no war in there yet. Just civil disorder.

    Maybe, but for a good while this land produce negative budget numbers.
    So it is more of a burden than a prize. But maybe after a lot of investments and several years of rebuilding situation can change.
    Sadly, under Ukrainian rule it is not possible (they are bankrupts) until someone will throw many tenths of billions in there.
    As i already stated we do not want Ukraine territory. We have more then enough territory to rebuild on our own.

    Without drastic changes to its current rulers Ukraine will not be republic. :shuffle:
    Btw, more pressure and threats applied to Russia - less likely we are to submit and more likely to stand stronger. We are quite stubborn people.

    Why not. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
  6. Red Ant

    Red Ant Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2002
    Messages:
    4,917
    Location:
    Germany
    Well, it's just very reaffirming to see that, after all the bitching and moaning about the evil Imperialist Murkins, Russia essentially uses the same credo as the U.S. ... might makes right. :)
    A pretense is found, a justification made up, and the game begins ...
     
  7. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    29,825
    Location:
    Moscow,Russia
    Due to all of these revolutions and wars hosted by USA&NATO lately world politics became quite relaxed on international laws.

    Rules changed and we are taking notes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
  8. Red Ant

    Red Ant Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2002
    Messages:
    4,917
    Location:
    Germany
    Yeah, as if Russia ever was in need of lessons regarding that. ;)

    Anyhow, that's just how the world works. Regardless of all the cute talk about international laws and all that, the strong nations have always been pushing around the small nations, and that's not about to change.
    Oh by the way, I'm not really taking sides in this, just in case you thought I was being "anti-Russia". Whether the ousting of the old Ukrainian government was brought about be disgruntled citizens or by western-backed fascists, abolishing the special status of Russians and other minorities was definitely a dumb move. I don't see how that justifies Putin's wee little overreaction, but you can't help but think ... what the frig WERE they thinking? Pissing off the 300-pound-gorilla on the block like that was some poor decision-making if ever I've seen some. :)
     
  9. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    29,825
    Location:
    Moscow,Russia
    Simple case.

    All Ukrainian leaders of last decade (or even 2-3) never been good at decision making.
    Current ones are even worse, and sadly there are currently close to NO sane alternatives.
    Only wide collection of corrupted, greedy, dumb, cowardly and/or nazi trash.

    A asked pro-EU (but not a nazi) Ukrainian about possible good/smart/sane candidate for a new presidential elections for Ukraine.

    Sadly, he badmouthed many but failed to name anyone.
    That's the problem that worries me most in current situation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
  10. -ALW-

    -ALW- Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2001
    Messages:
    2,086
    Location:
    Minot, North Dakota, USA
    That's essentially what came to mind for me when I heard about Russians showing up in Ukraine, at their base?!?. I thought...really now, what's the idea here? Shot heard around the world would be that Ukrainian tank blasting away at the Russians, within legitimate reason, on Ukrainian sovereignty.

    I know. Russia and UN and NATO won't have an excuse if parts of Ukrainians don't like seeing Russia aggressively tromping onto their nation's sovereignty. What's going to happen? Are we going to see a big concrete wall form across Ukraine, and then we see our maps show "West Ukraine" "East Ukraine". ::HINT HINT::

    Berlin shudders...

    [​IMG]

    :shuffle:
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
  11. -kum--

    -kum-- Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    10,477
    Location:
    Poltava, Ukraine
    But it is our problem, not russian.

    Anecdote:

    — Nationality?
    — Russian.
    — Occupation?
    — No, just visiting.
     
  12. SliceMaster

    SliceMaster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2002
    Messages:
    13,272
    Location:
    Krasnoyarsk
    i have relatives who lives there. since ussr. it is my problem.
     
  13. -ALW-

    -ALW- Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2001
    Messages:
    2,086
    Location:
    Minot, North Dakota, USA
    This isn't Russia's problem which is obvious but, they are making it their problem. My remark to Russians....'let sleeping dogs lie'. I know it may not be my business but, if there are people living in the Ukraine who are from Russia, they are either citizens of the Ukraine, making them Ukrainians or, visitors who should decide where they want to live. If people live in the Ukraine as citizens, they should be aware of their situation and deal with it or, leave. I wish the best for the Ukraine and pray for them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
  14. Uncles

    Uncles Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,787
    Location:
    Post-American USA
    Let's hope for peace :)

    One thing I do know: It is not the USA's problem! This isn't America's back yard, that's for sure.

    I support the rights of both the Russian- and Ukrainian-speaking parts of Ukraine (i.e., east and west Ukraine):they can split and be independent, the way Czech and Slovak countries are now.
     
  15. -ALW-

    -ALW- Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2001
    Messages:
    2,086
    Location:
    Minot, North Dakota, USA
    How about I put it this way.....

    Изменение - да! Вторжение - нет!
     
  16. SliceMaster

    SliceMaster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2002
    Messages:
    13,272
    Location:
    Krasnoyarsk
    imagine that dakota is not the part of usa any more, by decision of 3 man.

    most of exussr citizens was against ussr dismissal, but it happens. this was crime against all states.

    i afraid that ukraine can be divide in two parts. the worst is only the civil war. their goverment are assholes, but "oppositions" just the enemy of state itself.
     
  17. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    29,825
    Location:
    Moscow,Russia
    There is no invasion. And probably (and hopefully) never be.
    But invasion threat is a factor keeping things relatively bloodless.
    Why? Ukrainian army is too weak and partially demoralized to fight. And new ultra-nationalistic government too afraid to send forces to subdue east Ukraine by force.
    So all military actions are in fact frozen and banned.

    Russian troops in Crimea are legally allowed there due to Black Sea Fleet treaty.
    Thanks to that Crimea is a most stable region of Ukraine for now.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
  18. Mcloud

    Mcloud Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2003
    Messages:
    2,390
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
  19. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    29,825
    Location:
    Moscow,Russia
  20. hezey

    hezey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2010
    Messages:
    2,319
    Location:
    British Columbia, Canada
    The same old thing, again and again.
    I have 4 instances of VLC [a video and audio player] playing my favourite choices of [deleted] porn and the repeat icon is depressed. I am not depressed though.
    Fun fun fun. Goodness goodness goodness, people loving, squeezing, feeling, groaning.
    I am watching them, right now. Well, I am playing eyeball tag and not able to use the mouse [I have all the VLC instances on 'repeat' mode].
    I find life a lot less stressful, a lot more pleasant, when I see porn and not the news.

    My opinion about Russia's moves?
    I cannot help but think what would happen if Canada decided to embrace the Chinese hegemony, uh, the Chinese Way. Or The Russian Empire's way.
    If Canada, who has VERY VERY CLOSE TIES with USA, had a people's revolution and a [Sizeable] minority of CANADIANS decided they are now, Russian Oriented or Chinese Oriented, what would happen to Canada and Canadians? [Consider Mexico, when it was embracing a then powerful France, uh, French influence in Law and culture and policy.
    USA marched in and wrecked Mexico and Mexico never got over it.
    Russia is similar to any other Evil Empire.
    And Ukraine is similar to any other nation who couldn't defend itself.

    [Deleted] porn is easier to get to sleep after than a war is.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014