Ukraine

Discussion in 'Warbirds General Discussion' started by vasco, Feb 21, 2022.

  1. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    Hi all!

    What's the state of mind in Russia regarding the potential invasion of Ukraine? I don't know what the Russian media is saying, but here many people are quite concerned about Putin's plans.
     
  2. Flk

    Flk Well-Known Member

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    Ukraine is doing everything possible for this, killing its Russian-speaking citizens in eastern Ukraine.
    This is a very simplified explanation.
     
  3. mcgru-

    mcgru- Well-Known Member

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    NATO invaded Poland, Hungary, Checz, Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in 1994..2004
    Are your people concerned about that fact?
    Did you hear Putin's speech at Munich at 2007?
    https://lmgtfy.app/?q=putin's+speech+at+munich+2007
    After Germany united and USSR dismissed in 1991, NATO promised not to expand to the East (Warsaw Strategic Force Block was also disbanded). That (oral, not written) promises were thrown away by NATO...
     
  4. -Shai-

    -Shai- Well-Known Member

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    In any case, it's not invasion. Russia not interested to occupy Ukraine, because, at least, its expensive - Ukraine have too many international debts.
    imho, most similar, if goes in hot phase - Georgian action 08/2008.

    The Kremlin declares that it is not even interested in talking about the war, but Ukraine makes great efforts to force her into peace...
     
  5. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    That wasn't an invasion, you know it. Those peoples really wanted to join NATO
    Suppose you have some really bad neighbors who dislike you, talk behind your back and never invite you to their parties, although you are a nice guy. You wouldn't break into their homes and pillage their kitchen just because you're upset, right? None of us is that kind of people.
    Why should be ok for a government to do that?
     
  6. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    The "outer world" considered that an invasion.
    That's a very inspired joke, it sounds quite like radio Yerevan. But it contradicts all the facts that have been reported in the news outside Russia.
     
  7. Flk

    Flk Well-Known Member

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    It's simple: all news agencies in the world (and in Russia too) are always controlled by their governments. Or the business behind them. A perfect example is the recent US elections.
    "Look for who benefits"
    And oppositional news agencies in the countries of the former USSR are simply forbidden to work. This can be seen in the Baltics and Ukraine.
     
  8. Flk

    Flk Well-Known Member

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    Ukraine is a large multinational country. It is inhabited (from west to east) by Poles, Hungarians, Ukrainians, Russians and others. Ukrainians themselves are very different between Western and Eastern.
    My dad served in the army in Transcarpathia back in 1958. He said that the inhabitants of the Hungarian villages hated the Ukrainians (Western).
    It so happened that the Westerners got power in Ukraine. That's why you consider all Ukrainians our "bad neighbors". This is not so, most of the population of Ukraine is not our enemy, and many of them are Russians.
     
  9. -Shai-

    -Shai- Well-Known Member

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    outer world? well, their decision = their problem.

    so may be time to ask your newsmakers why so?
    if Ukrainians bevavior smells like terrorism, look like terrorism, and peacefull people of Donbass dying all the time since 2014 - your newsmakers told you something about it?
    USA makes invasions in Syria, Lybia, Iran with very smaller reasons, actually, and without any negotiations, and thats ok for you, but if Russia - potentially - to do any like USA did, after 8 years trying to decide by words, than Russia = invader?
     
  10. mcgru-

    mcgru- Well-Known Member

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    USA(+NATO) won the Cold War. We (USSR 1990-1991, Russia 1991-) agreed with that and payed contribution for it by our own devastated economics.
    But.
    Suppose you had an enemy who shot himself in the head - will you occupy his territory?

    What is NATO and what it is for?
    Why people in Poland wanted to join NATO? who threatened them in 1994? devastated Russia? or Iran in 10000km far?

    From the other side of the moon, imagine that people of LDNR wanted to join Russia...

    Kiev now is under "banderlog" government. In 2014.Feb there was an overturn - bandelogs with strong EU and US information support had unlawfully and illegally displaced the President. Some eastern regions didnt agree with that and took out from banderlog's dependence. Banderlogs ordered military forces (not even policia or special forces) to return control over LDNR. Thus the civil war had been started.

    It is far away from "pillaged kitchen" analogy.
    Better analogy is that you have a neibour family where husband periodically beats his wife. (much closer analogy: his wife is your cousine sister). You told him many times to stop beating, but he ignored you. Today you broke neibor's door and stand between him and his wife (not even punch him! yet)...

    Are you talking about USA/NATO pillaging Afganistan's, Serbia's, Libya's and Iraq's kitchens ????

    P.S.
    that's the key of all geopolitics now:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2022
  11. Red Ant

    Red Ant Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that never happened. And it couldn't have happened, because NATO is not a monolithic organization run with dictatorial powers. For a decision like this be made, all NATO members would have to vote, and that definitely never happened. At any rate, if a sovereign country wishes to join NATO (perhaps you should ask yourself why so many of the Soviet Union's former vassals were so eager to join NATO), who is Russia to tell them no?
     
  12. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

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    No point in discussion. They will not understand us.

    Totally different point of view and not the slightest interest to listen and understand our concerns.

    Sad thing: I think WW3 is inevitable. And all of this will end pretty bad.

    End results of Treaty of Versailles are mostly forgotten.
    I guess it takes only a hundred of years to forget even the hardest of lessons.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2022
  13. Stefan

    Stefan FH Beta Tester

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    I don't understand why Ukraine and the West are worried?
    Russia and Donbass are an exclusively defensive alliance. There is no reason to worry even if this alliance starts to expand.
     
    -Shai- and mcgru- like this.
  14. mcgru-

    mcgru- Well-Known Member

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    NATO is not a monolithic? :) it IS under USA control. USA presses on all EU members, NATO consists of NA+EU countries plus Turkie, so what Pentagon will decide - EU/NATO will comply. NATO obey to USA. so NATO is monolithic - it is 90% depending on USA.

    Also, you say it never happened?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO
    what was that 1999-2004??? what direction of expanse do you see?

    Stefan absolutely right - Russia and Donbass became an alliance, so if central Ukraine wish to join it - who is USA+NATO+EU to tell them no?

    I have much to say on this. Shortly, Russia has huge amount of resources, and US+GB (anglo-saxons) thinks it is too much for 140M inhabitants. So US+GB mainstream behaviour is to take control over resources via global companies like Shell, BP... And that was almost accomplished in 1992-2002 under foolish-Yeltsyn's presidence. Putin made a kind of nationalization of oil+gas resources and turned the flow of oil+gas.money into Russia's budget via taxes. And that very dissappointed US State Department, starting pressure on Putin and Russia.

    Had you listen to Putin's Munich 2007 speech?
     
  15. -frog-

    -frog- Well-Known Member

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    As you see :)
    All impregnated by Russian propaganda.

    So much for that bullshit:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

    But they're fed so much bullshit by their state-run media, that they do believe they're threatened, and not Ukraine.
     
  16. mcgru-

    mcgru- Well-Known Member

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    have you listened this?

    Putin speech, 2007, Munich.
    Putin described the reason of modern problems.

    Also, in Budapest Memorandum: what are semantic distinguishes between "will not threat" and "refrain from threat"?

    Also, bullshit from our state-run media much less bull-shittier than propaganda (lies) from US and EU schizophrenic media. "Quot licet Jovi (US/EU) non licet bovi (RU/CN)" - that's the corner of all US/EU politics.

    P.S.:
    Fuck EU (c) Vicky Nuland, Kiev Maidan, 2014.
     
  17. -frog-

    -frog- Well-Known Member

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    Blah, blah, blah...

    I am afraid you won't see that for yourself until it's well too late.

    As far as NATO expansion is considered - this served not boosting its military power, but lowering the expenditures of older "members". Poland now has less then half the number of MBTs it had in 1989... still it has more than Germany, which reduced its army to a stub.

    And it's not NATO but Russia, which waged more wars and invasions since 1989 (Chechnya - twice, Georgia - twice (1991, 2008), North Ossetia (including ethnic cleansing of Ingush people), Transnistria, Ukraine, Syria).
     
  18. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

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    Ok, I expected something like this from Poland.

    You (NATO) do not want diplomatic solution, you want to scare us.
    But we will not be scared. It is against our mentality.

    So this could only end in 3 ways:

    1. You back down and start negotiations. This time to actaully address our concerns, and not ignore them as you always do.
    2. New Cold War.
    3. Actual war.

    But keep in mind: if you plan to actually wage war with Russia - you can not win and new Cold War only beneficial to USA.
    Not for Russia or EU.
     
  19. mcgru-

    mcgru- Well-Known Member

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    Do you respect logics?
    (assume that you do)
    Then answer, please:
    1. Why Germany LOWERS her battle tanks quantity, but Poland JOINes NATO (and poland people "wanted to join") ?
    2. What were the threatens towards Poland then in 1999? huh?

    Chechnya - your vision is totally wrong. It is a bit same as Donbass to Ukraine with that difference that in Chechnya 1999 terrorists cut throats to all russians, but in Donbass the terroristic "banderlog" airforces hitted the center of Lugansk by non-manned rockets in 2014.
    Georgia 1991??? what are you talking about???
    Georgia 2008 - Saakashvili first ordered to open fire on russian peacemakers - OSCE affirmed that.
    North Ossetiya??? it is a part of RF since .... very long ago.
    Syria ??????????? after official ask for help from legitimate Assad ??? and you blame Russia for a fight against IGIL????
    are you in proper mind?

    btw, do you respect Bandera?
     
  20. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

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