Ukraine

Discussion in 'Warbirds General Discussion' started by vasco, Feb 21, 2022.

  1. Dornil

    Dornil Well-Known Member

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    Trust me, there is nobody more concerned about Putin's plans, than the people of Russia. I fail to see the reason behind all those decisions of his, the only thing I know for certain is that none of those decisions were/are/will be made in the interests of Russian citizens. And I doubt that at his moment we here have any means of realistically influencing his policy - internal or international...
     
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  2. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

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    Are you Russian?
     
  3. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    No, mcgru, It is not. There's an international law and there are international organizations as the UN that can act on human rights. Putin only cared about the russians living in Ukraine only when Ukraine made steps before NATO - both with Crimea and now.

    Having the US as the world's policeman isn't something I'm happy with. But all the above except Bush's quest for WMD in Irak had some legitimacy - even if the means were absolutely horrible and made even worse - see Afganistan.
    Why do you think I would automatically take the side of NATO governments and defend their every action?
     
  4. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    You are wrong, that's why I started the discussion.

    But who, do you think, will start such war?
     
  5. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

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    Limited EU vs Russia war is in USA interests. But I doubt it would be limited if started.
    Still, I have a very low opinion on the USA official's competency in the matter.

    Who will start it? It does not really matter.
    In the gradually rising disrespectful hate rhetoric, that's secondary and only matter of time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2022
  6. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    I think so too, but let's not say that out loud.
     
  7. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

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    No point in discussion then.
     
  8. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, it's too long. I got the key ideas from here
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_speech_of_Vladimir_Putin

    What I think about all this.
    Putin wants to preserve the balance of power from the cold war, when it worked well to prevent a new world war. Al the big boys had nukes, if one fired, it all ended. Nobody could win.
    That's why Putin is concerned about the defensive shield in Europe, of course. He thinks that Russian missiles will have lower chance of getting by so that NATO has an advantage.

    But the, what do you do, do you start a new hybrid war because of that?

    Beside Putin's geo strategical ideas I think there's another more important reason. He wants to keep the power for himself in Russia. He is a dictator, using nationalism to convince the people of the existance of foreign threats. And these arguments get by any critical thinking, because you feel threatened. And that is normal.
    Having such power inside, is the best defensive weapon for Putin against a coup - I bet many would want his place. And, as it happens with every dictator, they go more paranoid and even fiercer with age. See the campaign against his critics.
     
  9. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    That is very true, unfortunately.
     
  10. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    Rgreat, sorry for offending you, it wasn't intended as such.
    But yes, I see the Putin's ideas in your posts here with such an amazing clarity - I don't think in many other countries people's ideas are so much influenced by the state. I personally don't think this is a good sign, I think it's the sign of a working state propaganda and lack of freedom.
    The article in nytimes, I could read the first part. That was written on Yeltsin's time. Maybe then Russia had the appearance of a work in progress towards democracy. But that I don't think that applies now.
     
  11. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

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    You think wrong.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2022
  12. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    That's blunt :D
     
  13. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

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    Up to this moment, "west" made sure that Russia and most Russians(!) consider your countries as hostiles.

    Putin is actually quite liberal and very (very!) patient leader. I consider that a funny thing, that you are told otherwise.

    Chances are if he will be replaced, new president would be much less liberal person.

    I don't care what your media tells you about life in Russia, but we are really fed up with western bullshit, arrogance and mountains of lies.

    Georges Orwell, "1984" is happening now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2022
  14. Dornil

    Dornil Well-Known Member

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    I am.
     
  15. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

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    Ok, you have a right to have an opinion.
    I just don't remember seeing you on the forum before.
     
  16. -frog-

    -frog- Well-Known Member

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    Sorry rgreat, but IMHO Putin is nothing more than a "typical Russian leader".
    Last liberal leader of Russia was called Alexander II.

    Assassinations, sending opposition to grave (or Siberia/labour camps), controlling the press and mass media - has, ever since Alexander II, been the cornerstone of every Russian rule after 1866.
    Putin is not liberal at all.
    He's just following the footsteps of his predecessors.
    Systems change, but the Russian самодержавие remains alive and well.
     
  17. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

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    What a load of bullshit.

    Do you really expect Russians to care about your opinion after that kind of statements?

    Right. We do not care anymore.
     
  18. Dornil

    Dornil Well-Known Member

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    I've been here a long time, I just do no speak often:)
     
  19. rgreat

    rgreat FH Developer

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    No posts since 2014, lol! That's really long.

    Are you sure you're not from Ukraine? ;)
     
  20. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    Everyone has the right to have an opinion.
    Now, speaking of Putin's liberalism...