USA vs. IRAK

Discussion in 'Warbirds International' started by Benjamin8, Mar 20, 2003.

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Is USA's attack to Irak ok?

  1. yes

    23 vote(s)
    16.8%
  2. no

    105 vote(s)
    76.6%
  3. who cares

    9 vote(s)
    6.6%
  1. Benjamin8

    Benjamin8 Member

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    [​IMG]

    Saddam Hussein has abused kurds and shias and leads his country unfairly in someones opinion.As do many other countrys in the world.He has used biological weapons against minotiries in the country.

    Now the attack has started ,US military force invading to IRAK.The multi-complex mid-east situations panodoras-box is opened.How surrounding countries will react is unforseen.

    No weapons of massdestruction was found.No comfirmation that the terrorists behind 9/11 attack were from Irak.No one will tell what's gonna be the outcome of this.Should USA wake up from their so called American Dream? They are starting a war on the anotherside of planet with a country that has no realistic threat to them ,nor ,as europes countrys think ,to anyone.But surely things are going to get messy in mid-east or spread even farther.

    The United States of America didn't sign the Kioto treaty cause it will slow down their economical growth.That is called greed. The united states of America didn't give a shit what United Nations thought of how to handle Irak matter.That is called dictatorism.They are freely polluting our earth with dollarsigns in their eyes just to get some kicks of their miserable lying life on earth with lots of money with. In my opinion USA's masshypnosis works great.Talk about god and do the opposite.Their citizens are proud of their country.USA has the weirdest freaks and nutcases of the whole planet.If USA's prosent of prisoners of population keeps growing at same speed as now the whole country is in jail at the year 2024.It's kind of the whole country and culture is based on lying and acting.'Keeping appearences'.Many of people who been to USA that I know said afterwards that it's totally nutty place.If a honest man goes there ,there's a danger to go to psychosis with all that acting and lying and fake-smiling that keeps the system up.And why?
    Is it geneological issue?The people who left Europe had something in common? To flee ? Criminal genes? Liar genes? Lots of prisoners and unwanted people was also sent there .

    Two things they started to do as the stepped on the continent was wiping out the native population and the drag millions of people there for slavery.That is what they call freedom.And of course exploit South America (as they still do).

    I God we trust ,says in a 1 dollar bill.Jesus? Christianity? Hello!!!!Didn't jesus said to turn another cheek?Or promise a place in heaven for poor?

    In USA mainbanks enterance reads : I shall show you the truth ,and it shall make you free.So free is free and it means that you are free so then you are free to do whatever you wish.Sounds great.A sick abuse of a great thing.

    Of course there are beatiful,loving and understanding people in USA.All love and courage to them.I am talking here in general.No personal offence intended.



    PS.My sorrow is with all the victims of 9/11 and the innocent victims in IRAK in future.


    -Man is a greedy beast and it's sad .The hatered and selfiness is no doubtably taking over the world slowly.Evil is the owner of this world ,not the spirit.


    "Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
    [​IMG]

    ? Hermann Goering, Nazi leader, at the Nuremberg Trials after World War II
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2003
  2. illo

    illo FH Beta Tester

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    I agree mostly, but definetely not on this.

    :rolleyes:
     
  3. kangaa

    kangaa Well-Known Member

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    I may be wrong but didn't Hitler start by invading another country????

    It is just like the yanks to beat up a country that can't defend its self just like a school yard bully.....Why not pick on north korea OH thats right they can fight back and the fact that there is no oil there dosen't help.....


    Oh well right or wrong its started now so what will be will be...




    :cheers:
     
  4. Nestor

    Nestor Member

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    War is at all the time very dreadful thing :dark:
     
  5. beryl

    beryl Well-Known Member

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    In 1934 J.Piłsudski (leader of Poland in 1920s, man who stopped soviet army in 1920) was in France, to talk with French leaders about preventional attack on Germany. France didn't agreed. 5 years later... everyone knows what happened 5 years later. I'm not saying that Bush and USA are ok, but someone have to stop Saddam before it's to late
     
  6. Malino

    Malino Well-Known Member

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    Yes but by using propoganda he'd convinced his own countrymen that by invading Poland they were doing the right thing, "cleansing" the country of jews which were threatening good honest germans and freeing the innocent people of oppression.

    All you need to do is change a couple of words and hey presto.


    Mal
     
  7. Nestor

    Nestor Member

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    Of course attack of USA in order to stop Sadam bad activity should be smaller evil then Sadamґs killing of own people and risk of biological and nuclear danger for everybody ;)....but still in my mind is on the first rank PEACE.........for everybody (really for everybody .........for Iraqґs and USA people of course too)
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2003
  8. Benjamin8

    Benjamin8 Member

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    Where came the idea Irak is gonna attack somewhere?

    And it's not about Irak.It's the whole Mid east that is going to get messed up badly!What do you think the musilims like in general that USA occupies Irak??

    Can you state arguments please.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2003
  9. Nestor

    Nestor Member

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    O.K. you maybe have truth. But I am wonder what people would be said if iraq had anytime in future done any problem with antrax or A-bomb etc.............It is very complicated .......please believe me I hate war , I love people (EVERY !!!!, in spite of colour of skin and religion) I love life !.......My idea is that world should be concretated to global problem especially our environment etc. ...... thinking of any agression is BLIND STRE :znaika: ET for EARTH
     
  10. illo

    illo FH Beta Tester

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    I don't think any arguments are needed.
    Everyone with little bit of brain must understand that people are quite the same everywhere you might go. However governments and their politics will differ.

    Even you might most likely believe in US propaganda if you lived there.

    How else would normal people (like you and me i assume) have ever supported leaders like Hitler, Sharon or Bush? These are all elected leaders. And all acted (and act) like madmen.


    And no. I don't have anything against muslims, americans, europeans and so on. I just hope people would get along without believing and following these mad leaders waging wars.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2003
  11. Texican

    Texican Member

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    That's right kangaa. We beat up many countries over the years - Germany, Japan, Italy, Vietnam, N. Korea, etc.

    It was okay to beat up Japan and Germany AFTER they started WWII (and the Germans in WWI). It was okay to beat up N. Korea AFTER they attacked S. Korea. We carried on (right or wrong) what the French started in Vietnam.

    Gee. seems to me the Aussies did not have a problem with our actions then. :confused:

    As for N. Korea now, we are trying to deal with it. We still have troops in S. Korea to help defend it and we have even moved more air and naval assets into the region to assist.

    I said it before and I say it again, to quote:

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. "
    ----Edmund Burke (1729–1797), Irish philosopher, statesman.

    BTW - France said on 18 March 2003, that the French military could help the U.S. if the Iraqi's use chemical or biological weapons against the U.S. invaders.

    Now, if they are SO certain that Iraq does not have those weapons then why did they make that statement? Is it merely CYA for the French?

    I do not now nor have I ever wanted war. Even before I did my time in the service and certainly after I did not like war. I still have many friends, relatives, and some folks I only know because I trained them at some point, in the service and I do not want them to go in harms way. But at some point someone has to stand up and do something besides talk.

    Did you want Aussie troops to go into East Timor?


    Texican
     
  12. Odisseo

    Odisseo Well-Known Member

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    Saddam wasn't in any case a danger for USA citiens but now USA army is a danger for Iraq and all close country citiens.
    75% of Iraq peaples live below the poverty, 60% of them have only ONU humanitarians help for eat and try in someway to survive.
    If the war will be longer than what USA army think more than 1.5 million of poor peaples will have to run from the war asking help to the already pover country near (even if some american pilot don't confuse them for enemy and drop napalm as it happened in Serbia).
    Till the 11th september i din't heard any word or intention of USA to attack Saddam...strange now it's imperative make the war.
    Bush and all the US peaple had the support of the whole world after the 11th disaster, now it's exactly the opposite.
    Someone (i don't remember who) sayd that the war is the continuation of politic in extreme cases, after this war the politic from Arabic countrys and USA will be compromised and will be necessary decades in order to re-establish contacts.
    I know Saddam is a dictator, but will his elimination repay all the destrucion, the dead of innocents and the poverty for all survived?
    Ofcourse Bush and most USA peaples don't care , they still sleeping well in theyr warm beds and eat hamburgers, between theyr war and them is an ocean!
    Maybe Europe peaples care a bit more to the consequences of one war, immigration and petitioners of asylum,the crisis that will follow the war, and not for last the cost this stupid war will have!

    Switzerland as neutral country already chosed his politic line, the USA have ignored the alliance having decided deliberately to attack an enemy who had not demonstrated hostility against the United Nations.
    Switzerland will stay totally out of the conflict, no resources to allied army in war, no troops or material have the autorisation to cross or to fly over our borders.
    Swiss COy are already in place as a military section NOT ARMED and they will give humanitarians help and and to supply the first medical aids to the civilians.

    As sayd this morning, Switzerland will stop to supply his weapons to USA if his politics don't stop to tell us what we HAVE to do! (as they asked us to expulse the Iraq politicians from Switzerland).
     
  13. grobar

    grobar Well-Known Member

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    In fact an attack of polish forces on german border control point was inscenered (by dressed germans) and they even made announcement on a radio station.

    So germans (were supposed to) thought its Poland who attacked Germany and it is a defensive war. 3 days later Britain and France declared war, so the invasion of France was also a sort of defencive war.

    Beniamin where you from? :) Beniamin is a jewish name AFAIK.
     
  14. heartc

    heartc Well-Known Member

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    As little as some Raghead from a cave in Afghanistan could trigger a massive attack on America I guess...
    And make no mistake: Those who have the same enemy, don't need the same religion.

    Deny whatever you want. While you bitch, announcing that does not mean you like Saddam, the US endorse facts, with Saddam's imaginery Scuds flying overhead. It's no secret btw that it's also about dominance in that area. Be sure the US ensures it will not be their enemy that has it. And therefore they didn't join Saddam's long-year trick games, as those did who want to stay in business with him and don't give a shit about how many US citizens and troops overseas are threatened.

    There is no basis at all to even begin a discussion with people comparing Bush to Hitler, Zionist-shouters, or with those who live in their little Karl Marx pacifist phantasie world which doesn't live up to reality and has therefore failed. And I'm sure those guys don't see a basis of discussion in my point of view either. That's fine, as far as I'm concerned.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. heartc

    heartc Well-Known Member

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    One last thing: Once your points are identical with those of Saddam, the Nazis or other anti-semitic - reconsider.
     
  16. Zembla JG13

    Zembla JG13 FH Beta Tester

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    I don't agree with Saddam in any way, I don't agree with the way he rules his country, or the way he tries to fake a democracy, nor do I like it when he invades another country to have acces to the sea and to additional oil sources...

    BUT: Saddam was no direct threat to the USA, his military is so weakened after all the years of embargo and after the war, which came directly after another war... alright, he was glad when the Twin Tower fell into oblivion, ok, maybe he was more than glad, but it's about as glad as I would be when the bully that steals my food [embargo] gets kicked in the nose...

    I just don't get how you can keep supporting Bush though... Bush has nullified all international laws, and the basical principle of most law systems based on the codex Iustinianus or the codex Napoleon, this principle being: someone is innocent until found guilty by a court of law... Bush played the role of prosecutor AND judge all by himself... if Bush can have his way I can assault any random person I see fit, and when someone tries to stop me I can say "I've ran out of patience", "He's keeping chemical weapons even though you can't see them" or maybe even "He's a realistic threat to western society"...

    I see Bush 's reckless egocentrical way of acting as a bigger threat to society (not necessarily western society) than Saddam, Bush opened the way to countries that are in desperate need of land, resources or practically anything the target has...

    Bush is perhaps democratically chosen by the American people, but he has no right to play "king of the world" like he is now... he's playing absolute monarch, and who's gonna stop him? Who can say where this will end? The idea of absolute power all of a sudden back alive again... doesn't really appeal to me...
    He has only been chosen by the American people so he can only make decisions for them... right now he is extending his reach to the whole world...

    more to follow I'm afraid, and heartc, I'm not hoping to convince you either way, but I'm just trying to open your eyes a bit more

    greetze, Zembla
     
  17. heartc

    heartc Well-Known Member

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    I consider Zembla not-so-moronic ;) , so here we go:

    Osama Bin Laden didn't have any military comparable to the current weak one of Saddam at all. And as I indicated before: It's ridiculous to rule out a cooperation between Saddam and other terrorists pointing on different religious views, especially in that context:

    And why say food? If he'd give the money he could still make to people's neccessities, instead of persuing secret weapon programms, re-building his military and shooting at western a/c in the no-fly-zones, they wouldn't have been in so deep sorrow. The first thing he did after the gulf war was rebuilding his palaces and military as far as he could (which was not much thanks to the embargo). Makes for a good propaganda to tell his people they suffer because of the embargo, even if he is the reason it does exist at all.

    As far as I understand Res1441, it demands immediate, full, deliberate cooperation on eliminating his programms without conditions, just as South Africa did, as the inspectors say. He didn't live up to that at all. The inspectors know what was there in 1998, and still not everything has been accounted for by Saddam. Even yesterday (or was it the day before yesterday, not sure), during the last SC meeting on the topic of disarmament of Iraq, Blix said the new report by Iraq contains only limited new information. This SOB is playing his old game. So, I'd say, it was the Veto-threateners, which did ignore UN SC resolutions first, namely Res1441. With "partners" that don't agree now on what they agreed yesterday, I wouldn't listen any longer either.

    And if you actually believe France, Russia, Germany or whoever is now freaked out because of International Law, you are at least as naive as me.


    You believe the game of absolute power has ever stopped? Better choose the side you're on, because it has not. I'm not naive, I'm pragmatic, and this means that I will rather accompany with the US, which meets my understanding of an intact democracy and security way more than Countries which choose to appease with threats and which have already failed while doing so in the past.

    Right now he is removing an evil dictatorship, thereby removing a threat to the US and their allies.

    Thanks, but my eyes are already open - wide open.

    Regards
    heartc
     
  18. ppedott_vibora

    ppedott_vibora Well-Known Member

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    *sigh*

    IMHO

    This mess is only about one f* thing:
    oil
    Ok, no news... but...
    How sad is to see a veeery poor people
    going to die because such French and Russian oil contyracts with Irak...
    How sad is to see that "embargo" (oil x food) is still there just to prevent that French and Russians Companies assume (?) their agreements, and this "war" is only to finnaly let the north american (and Brits, maybe...) oil companies could collaborate in a Iraks reconstruction (ie: at least in the oil fields and refinneries (?))
    Note that is nothing wrong w/ these trade agreements... its part of commerce in our planet... The wrong is (IMHO) one powerfull country deliberated - and against the majority of international opinion - attack a sovereign country in name of "terrorist treath"... Dammned, is that clear that nuts of uncle Saddan is only a treath to the minorities of his country (btw, w/ that exclusion zones, Uncle Sadd cant give a fart outside center Irak) and, after that sad events at 11/9, all the north americans, the people AND they government finnaly face that (unfortunally) exists people that think different and that people must be listen...
    Right! To bomb buildings, boats, embassies is NOT the way to solve "different opinions matters"...
    I DO NOT endorse the way of Palestinian people (better said government) try to achieve they goals...
    Gandhi did show us how to face intolerance and win over it...
    And... we will see folks, one more time... people dieing for greed and pollution...
    What fucking world Iґm letting to Julia and Luisa, my doughters ... :(
     
  19. Odisseo

    Odisseo Well-Known Member

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    that's mean we others are moronic?
    Excuse me, but, wasn't first task find and destroy weapons for mass attack? in a strange way this task got transformed in one istant in "kill the bastard" and now a USA General is already ready to be leader after the war? this is ridicule!

    heartc don't tell me who is right and who's not, your leader is doing only what every leader is doing now, check his own interests.
     
  20. Odisseo

    Odisseo Well-Known Member

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    And please check the difference from an Army and Terrorism, Saddam it's a terrorist but his Army can't touch USA peaples on USA ground.
    You can kick Saddam and his Army, but this will not stop the work of the hundred of terroristic cells who can be totally indipendent for years.
    Kill the boss don't stop the terrorism, and now i really hope for world peaple that those hundred of terroristic cells will not get theyr revenge.