:))))) you are welcome

Discussion in 'Warbirds Polish' started by badboy, Aug 10, 2005.

  1. -frog-

    -frog- Well-Known Member

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    Look Boroda, 2 people survived Starobelsk executions, they knew who shot at them, they later managed to escape to Britain to tell their story. If You negate Red Cross's 1943 expertise You're equal to me to those who say that nobody knows who were the killers behind Holocaust, because there're no proofs that Nazis did that. That's my point of view. There're no reliable sources claiming that the Holocaust was not the work of Nazis as there are no reliable sources claiming that Katyn massacre was a work of them.
     
  2. Boroda

    Boroda FH Community Officer

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    So - you prefer to build hatered on a lie? :rolleyes:

    I think that Stalin deserves the same attitude as Pilsudsky. Nothing to "believe" there.
     
  3. -frog-

    -frog- Well-Known Member

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    I think Pilsudski would have felt offended by comparing him to someone who's responsible for the death of 20millions of own country's citizens.
     
  4. HJM---

    HJM--- Well-Known Member

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    as far as I'm not supporting any of "superpower's" version in any of such cases, it is always interesting to read what others have to say in such troublesome and delicate matters, either if they speak for themselves or for majority, as long as their arguments are backed up by some kind of source - not always official one, one you might disagree with even...and I must say that I'm eager to read Boroda's posts because of that...even if he is an "evil commie bastard (tm)" :)
     
  5. Boroda

    Boroda FH Community Officer

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    Well, Starobielsk: http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery...curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b&linktext=Starobielsk

    Great link. Total nonsence.

    How did they "survive" execution? How did they get to UK? I have more questions, do me a favour and give me a source on Starobielsk.

    I negate "Red Cross" 1943 expertise made in 1943 because there were at least two people who later said they were forced to sign it because nazis threatened their families. Names were mentioned in Kurt Reiss' book about Goebbles, "Devil's advocate".

    Why do you negate a Burdenko Commission report made in 1944? You negate it while it was OK for Nuremburg Court, isn't it strange? IIRC even 1943 expertise mentioned that Poles were killed from German weapons, how do you explain it?

    You know, I don't have faith, I am open for arguments. Some more questions: Is it possible to see the documents provided to Poland by Gorbachev? If it is not - then thet are classified in Poland? Maybe there is a reason not to open them for public?

    Seriously, this documents can persuade me that it was definetly Soviet side guilty. I try to find a rational base of your beliefs. And I think that your comparing Katyn' massacre to Holocaust is hard to appreciate, even for non-Jews.

    Don't you see that by bringing this question up in such a way we help our mutual enemies?...

    http://www.rusk.ru/st.php?idar=160230 - some details on recent investigation made by Russian General Military Prosecutor's office. Out of 14500 Polish prisoners held in former USSR after 1939 only the death of 1803 persons is confirmed, which is no more then ordinary percent for POWs, without any mass-executions.

    IMHO official investigation reports from 1944 and 2005 are a little bit more reliable then nazi, CNN and CIA bullshit. Sorry. Quoting CNN or CIA about "soviet crimes" is just like quoting "Volkliche Beobachter" about Jewish plutocracy or Polish crimes against Germans.
     
  6. -frog-

    -frog- Well-Known Member

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    @Boroda

    Search Google for "Zdzislaw Peszkowski"... you're slowly begining to bore me with your ignorance :(
     
  7. -frog-

    -frog- Well-Known Member

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    and btw can a Commission named "Special Commission for Determination and Investigation of the Shooting of Polish Prizoners of War by German-Fascist Invaders in Katyn Forest" find out anything else that they were shot by Nazis? (that was the full, official name of the commission... reliable reports LMAO).
    I doubt it... if they found otherwise they'd constitute the next layer of bodies in the mass-grave.
    BTW- the 2005 report only spoke against naming the massacre "genocide" it did not say that Russians did not make it, as it is a matter of fact, that they did.
     
  8. Red Ant

    Red Ant Well-Known Member

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    Well, now you've gotten me curious, Boroda! Pray tell, what was the real reason the Soviets shut down all land and water connections to and from Berlin??
     
  9. Boroda

    Boroda FH Community Officer

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    In 1948 IIRC occupants in Western zones made "elections" and declared BRD. They also issued West-German currency, so, occupation marks became useless in the West. Billions of occupation marks were transferred to Soviet zone, and IIRC they kept printing them in UK. Soviet occupational administration had to fight the inflation that had a deep impact on still destroyed Soviet economics. Under that conditions they had to close the borders to stop the stream of paper money from the West. West Berlin administration wanted to pay for water, electricity and food with useless occupation marks printed in London, so Soviet authorities had to insist on paying in hard currency. That's the real reason for what is called "starving" West Berlin. It's called "capitalism". USSR simply couldn't afford paying for a hostile anclave while half of Soviet industry was still in ruins.

    This was the reason for a brilliant propaganda show called Berlin Airlift.

    99% of Russians never heard about it. I was really surprised when someone asked me about it on AH BBS, so - I had to dig into some sources...

    USSR was always rational, at least until 1956. Nothing like "bloodthirsty monsters" as on propaganda cartoon strips. Always practical. We don't eat children like it was told to East Prussian population in 1914. I don't see any reason to simply kill thousands of Poles in 1940. It could add a serious share to the number of people executed in 1940 in USSR - statistics is availible. And there existed many prison camps where Poles were held after 1940.
     
  10. Boroda

    Boroda FH Community Officer

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    I always wonder why people sincerely believe Goebbels and negate anything from Soviet side. I reserve a right to believe Soviet side on questionable matters.

    Nice logics. Sure, it was Soviets who set up Warsaw ghetto and planned to eliminate all Slavonic nations - in ten years it will be shown on CNN and Ophrah, no doubt.

    http://eng.9may.ru/eng_news/m12668 - more or less complete translation of Savenkov's report made in 2005. Unfortunately there's nothing more availible in Russian :(
     
  11. Boroda

    Boroda FH Community Officer

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    Important note

    Important note: I participate in this thread only as a private person, my opinion doesn't nessessarily reflect the views of other members of FH team.
     
  12. -al---

    -al--- Well-Known Member

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    Re: Important note

    I don't think you had to say that ;)
     
  13. Boroda

    Boroda FH Community Officer

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    Re: Important note

    I only thought that you guys are too polite here ;)

    On AH BBS when I discuss Katyn' with Toad - on the 4th page language filter makes it impossible to understand posts :D
     
  14. -frog-

    -frog- Well-Known Member

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    Not only Goebells said that... that's the difference... and saying that in the years 1945-85 was a firm way to get into prison here... so there're a few more reasons to believe.

    Fact: Document read. -> Analysis Results: Nothing stating that it were not the Soviets who killed the Polish officers found in document. -> Conclusion: Boroda tries to soap up my eyes -> Action: Rolling on the floor, laughing my ass off :)
     
  15. yivan

    yivan Well-Known Member

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    Pisze takie bzdury jakby byl oficerem politycznym w sajuzie. Kolo chyba nie wie, że im sajuz rozlecial się 12 lat temu, amerykanie nie byli na księzycu, ani że gagarin miał brata blizniaka. Ale szkoda ze na swiecie sa ludzie z klapkami na oczach i nie wiedzą co sie wokol nich dzieje, ani co sie działo zanim sajuz sam się zapadł, jakie były "zasługi" stalina i nkwd oraz co to był gułag :rtfm:
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2005
  16. ramzey

    ramzey Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
    2 people like this.
  17. jfm

    jfm Well-Known Member

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  18. -al---

    -al--- Well-Known Member

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    LOL ramzey :D
     
  19. Boroda

    Boroda FH Community Officer

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    Not only "Evil Soviet Regime" (tm) said that nazis are guilty for Katyn'.

    If saying something like that was a firm way to go to prison in 45-85 - then your bloody opressors were muuuch worse then ours :D At least they allowed you to listen to Western music :)

    1803 deaths confirmed. Nazis excavated 4000+ bodies. I don't say that no Poles were executed, I say that I don't know that in Katyn' Soviets killed Poles. There are mass graves of Polish prisoners in other places, but again - I don't know if it was execution or "natural deaths" :( For example, in Finnish POW camps death rate was up to 43% IIRC, so the numbers look reasonable even without mass-executions.

    Some people say that Savenkov's statement was just polite enough for Poland not to lose face: Katyn' seems to become a national religion, like exodus for Jews. It looks like a polite way to say "STFU, please". :-\

    Question still unanswered: is it possible to take a look at documents provided by Gorbachev? It's one of the ways to really persuade me, seriously. I am tired of all that "everyone knows".
     
  20. Boroda

    Boroda FH Community Officer

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    5 for PhotoShop work, 2 for stealing an idea from AH BBS and failing to compose a text that is less stupid ;)

    You can use it at AH BBS, at least it has my face instead of that poor Iraqi guy ;)