Well mate, if 60 years ago the Allies had shared your line of thinking, then'd you probably be speaking German today.
Okay, it is easy for you guys to say what will not work. Let's see if you can also tell us what WILL. As I've said before, I'm dying to gain insight in your plans to defeat terrorism without using violence. Pray tell, just HOW will we accomplish that feat? Go on.
that was a whole country fighting and invading others. Totally different to a band of motherfuckers that blow some train or some bus, and whose intentions aren't to conquer the world, but to be liberated of invasors
I've always said that i din't know how it would work, but i for sure know how it WOULDN'T work. You can say, i know i'll crash if i get that curve at 150mph, but you don't know what speed you can exactly pass it. Maybe some tests would be good to defeat terrorism, but i'm not sure of the good method. All i know is that ETA is slowly dying, and we never used violence like you preach.
First you have to open up channel for conversation and cease all actions that might severe the situation. Let's put up few examples here: Look at Indonesian goverments fight against aceh separatists. They used force and killed tens of thousands of people which only severed their problems. (Separatists started capturing and killing foreigners etc.) Now they are here in finland discussing around the same table for peaceful solution for both sides. Probably a real autonomy for area. Indonesia won't bother them. They wont bother indonesia. That simple. British problem dealing with IRA. Discussion has been the only way to archive anything and i would say it has mostly been effective in reducing actions of terror, which have peaked when force has been used. I guess our spanish friends can also teach you a lot how to effectively counter terrorism and also how to make it worse. Im in no way any specialist to go into details. But even child can see (or i would think so, but obiviously im wrong) that there isn't much grounds to solve this issue by force. It hasn't been possible in the past as the history very well shows us. It isn't possible because of our very nature. We tend to revenge. What do you think will now today make impossible to possible? Where do you base your idea that using force helps? You are not fighting against any goverment, so you can't just beat it. Killing their leaders only makes them martyrs. Kill all terrorists that exist today and terror would cease? No, you're fighting against scattered individuals and groups which will only multiply with any violent action taken against them. Unless it's done in full media coverage and unless it's full genocide. However in our modern world i don't see either as realistic options. I think you are fighting half-assed fight here. Which really leads you nowhere. Kill em all or get along with them, what other options could there possibly be? Kill some of them and have some bombs blowing up now and then? ehh?
"Father sunshine" was too humanistic. A mistake: "Sunshine" is a title for Prince Vladimir who baptised Russia in Dniepr river in 988 AD. He didn't use tactics well-known and effective, invented by geleral Yermolov. In 1860s Russian Empire pacified Caucasus. Later Yermolov's methods were successfully used during Civil War by White troops against Chechens who supported Bolsheviks (Reds promised them "freedom", and their understanding of "freedom" is to be free to slaughter, rape and rob). It was cruel but unfortunately only it worked: burn a village and send 3-4 survivors to 3-4 other villages. It's the only language they understand. I don't see why it's mandatory to trade one Russian soldier and 10 Russian civilians for one terrorist. IMHO the proper weapon in Chechnya should have been a BM-21 "Grad", more shells from Grad then AK-74 bullets. Illo, it's hard to speak to people who didn't greet each other in 1999: "Hi, so, I suppose you still haven't been blown up?"...
Not a rule... Couple of says before a brazilian has been shot dead in London due to his (really stupid) attempt to escape police force. Imagine the rage of policemen -- that poor man got 5 bullets in his head just because he was running away and looked like an arab. That's what I was warning all of you. Whatever he has done, the punishment was a literal overkill.
ETA is slowly dieing just because Al Qaeda is #1 now. Those, that make money on violence cannot be too disperse in their applications.
NEVER! RUN! FROM! POLICE!!! Especially at the state of war. Now tell me, who's IQ is questionable? For those, who has no slightest idea: police force, even in civilian clothings always present themselves with IDs Or that brazilian couldn't read English? Or a police badge could be mixed with anything?
In any case police actions were appropriate and correct, except 4 additional shots This is a train, warning fire is not an option. They cannot shoot in the legs or whatever just to stop the runner, because if the runner is a bomber, he would activate the charge, being capable to do anything, being wounded. The ONLY option -- to kill him immediatelly. WTG police. If you are being ordered to stand still, STAND STILL!!! THIS IS THE STATE OF WAR!!! Now I respect British even more
Erm since when is religion tied to race? Sure, it increases the possibility, but don't tell me there are no muslems in Brazil. I don't really disagree with Vadim, when protecting yourself from suicide terrorists you can't fight with one hand tied to your back. On the other hand, imagine leaving your house and being followed by two conspiciously looking figures... all of a sudden they shout to stand still... will you stop? I won't, unless they shout their legitimation... but if they shout their legitimation, a potential suicide terrorist might blow himself up... so all in all, it's a fucking dangerous situation. <Z>
I have to agree with Vadim, yes it's sad he was shot but I keep asking myself the following questions. The address he was staying at was linked to the bombers. He was wearing thick heavy clothes in 28 C temperature. He ran when the Police yelled at him to stop He ran into a Tube station. He jumped the ticket barriers All this time the Police were yelling at him (confirmed by witnesses) The simple point he ran from the Police in my mind says he was up to something. Sadly he's dead so we'll never know. Mal
again you're showing your ignorance here. ETA started to die long time before the bombings in Madrid. Please, stop acting like a smartass when you know a shit about ETA. We can talk about anything, but obviously, you know ETA because someone named them in this forum, because once and again you show us how ignorant you are in that subject.
once again, when human lifes are involved, you can't accept a mistake. If he should have been a bomber, why did he run? He was giving back to police, so an easy target. He was loaded, so he wouldn't escape. He run in the train tub, jumped, etc... loaded of explosives, that could blow anytime.... What the hell, if police had a slight idea of what their job is, they should know that a bomber won't run. They stand still, and let police approach, to immediately blow themselves up. Like they did in Leganes. They were surrounded of cops, and waited for them to be near the door, and then blew away, killing 2 of them (IIRC). They didn't try to run loaded of explosives, or escape through the windows or any other shit. They are supposed to have guts, so they won't run. Btw, my grandpa used to go out in August with 40°C to walk in the streets with a coat. Maybe someone could have shot him in the head. All in all he might be suspicious, right?
So you now see he was inocent, even tony blair is "apologizing" for murdering an inocent brazilian. Shooting first and asking questions later does not work
There is more than that. It fucks up the rules that society works on. If police can act above the law. Nothing stops them fe. shooting you simply because don't like your face. If suspect is enough, anyone can be suspected and anyone can be shot to death. And further going, when suspicion is enough to arrest and enough to kill you aren't far from totalitarian system. If someone doesn't like you, he/she can always suspect you as terrorist and police will imprison or kill you. Same goes if you trouble government or some officer. They suspect that you house some WMDs in your cellar and blam..off your head goes. That's how it works. I prefer that proof is needed for arrest and that no one is allowed to shoot anyone. Im glad im not living in london, im glad i have not dark skin and im glad im not late from work so i would have to run to catch a metro. To me this thing just shows how an old and trusted legal system can be put to it's knees with just a few bombs. Another victory for terrorists. In addition, do you guys think that muslims in UK feel secure now? Now that police can theoretically shoot them anywhere anytime based on suspicion. I smell good growing grounds for little terrorists.