Russia-Georgia-Ottesia News Explanations PLEASE?

You're sounding more like a Sami there... airfax....

 

Yes exec is of course fair and balanced....lol

Grobar wasn't it you who was giving the US shit for occupying countries? This is the same shit, but this time it's ok right? this totally different lol

Why are people getting all worked up over this? People being banned, people quitting freehost and people throwing idiotic statments like WWIII and the "new hitler" around?!?!

I bet more people get shot and killed in just 5 of our largest cities a year. People are dying all over the world, and this one week scuffle has people all fired up? why? Because it's in Europe............ nothing matters in this world until it's close to home, everyone's the same.

Take your emotions out of it and look at the big picture people, this isn't shit. Discussing it and explanning it are one thing, banning people is another, stop being so sensitive. Everything is relative.

 

interesting mongolian custom: khan should pay attention to his own people, since people are free to move to another khan. khan that stayed alone is a poor bastard. that was times when mongol tribes finally ceased inter-tribe bloodshed (that caused huge mongol offence and creation of chengiz khan empire)

 

just read here on some polish news-site, that russians used illegal (against civilians) cluster bombs (which were dropped in the civilian centre of Gori). That is considered as a war crime by some.

 

Yes, maybe for Germany thats fine, in the middle of stable Europe. But do you know how easy it is to create a situation where people hate each other and dont wont to live together anymore?

In Georgia they lived together as part of the USSR (South Ossetia was sub-autonomous region within Georgian SSR, just like North Ossetia was in Russian SSR). With the rise of nationalism during Gorbatchov's liberalisation it was very easy to radicalise the population. In the 1980s the Ossetian soviets (councils) wanted wider autonomy of their entity, to use own language in schools and administration etc.
The supreme Georgian soviet (council) also had rising nationalist feelings and voted to revoke their threatening secessionist demands, and later to revoke even their within-USSR autonomy.

Why?
- Because, Ossetia is integral territory of Georgian history (up until that tribe emigrated there in 1x century while Georgians were oppressed by the Ottoman empire).
- Because 30% of population is still Georgian, and they are afraid what would happen if it is left in a country with foreign majority, and rising negative feelings towards Georgians.
- Because in there lies one of the few transport links passing the 5000m Caucasus range - the Roki tunnel is the only link of Georgia with Europe (Russia) where it gets most of its ground supplies.

Somewhere there started the first Ossetian war.
Doesnt it look so much similar to Kosovo?
However the Ossetians won that one against the Georgians, unlike the Albanians. Without outside help.
They were de facto separate country since 199x.
The Georgian population was banished during the war and fell from 30% to 10% - only in the zones held by Georgian army. (which were of course emptied from ossetians, respectively).
the referundum was made after the war and after the ethnical cleansing. just like in Kosovo. The minority Georgians boycotted the pointless for them referendum, just like in Kosovo.

The Russians of course saw the oppotunity to weaken the most anti-russian/pro-american state in their former territories, and they offered semi-secret support to the Ossetians. Just like the Americans saw the opportunity to weaken the only remaining pro-russian ally in the Balkans and started supporting the Albanian rebels with instructors, weaponry and a political umbrella.

The russians give to the ossetians economic help (the country is otherwise not economically viable - it lives on smuggling, just like Kosovo. 30% of the GDP is from duties levied on Georgian traffic through the Roki tunnel), they give them passports, probably weapons, and pushed through a deployment of official russian peacekeepers that basically kept the re-grouped and modernised (by Americans of course) Georgian army at bay.


until last week that is.


another funny bit, do you see who is the most vocal 'defend the democratic georgian nation from the evil russian occupiers'? again the same - Poland, Czech Rep, Latvia and Lithuania. It's nothing about principles of freedom, simply old hatred.

i am not surprised the polish newspapers are full of evidence that Gori was bombed with cluster bombs.

 

Yes, because all these states have great experiences with your kind of freedom. And how everybody see now, it's still the same like was

 

funtom, everybody makes his interpretations about the wider world based on his own historical experiences. so i am not surprised by their reactions.

however, based on my own historical experiences here on the balkans, I am not sure that georgian government is that democratic and respecting minority wishes as they would like to portray it.

(ps: i reedited my post above)

 

In fact, i strayed away from what i wanted to say.

Why it might not be so cool to encourage anyone who wants to secede to do so?

Yes, maybe for Germany thats fine, in the middle of stable Europe. We know in the UK and Spain and in Belgium they are thinking about it, and if it happens it will be peaceful and democratic.

But do you know how easy it is to create a situation where people hate each other and dont wont to live together anymore? Today it is a fine country, with territorial integrity and no problems with the minorities (just some historical memories about past injustices which are discussed over a glass of rakiia or with foreign tourists looking for exotics), and tomorrow, if a powerful enough agents want it - the problems start to pop up one by one.

If these agents know that this could lead to splitting of countries they would become much more active in many places you havent previously heard about.



In Bulgaria we already hate the turkish party. There is already 10% who translate this to hating the bulgarian turks altogether. They have founded their chauvinist party.

There is already somebody walking around the Pomak villages and convincing people that they are a separate nation that only happens to be talking the bulgarian language. That they have much older and prouder history and they have been oppressed by the Bulgarians. (This idea was first introduced by the Greek government to the half of the Pomaks that are living in Greece. Those are issued textbooks in the "Pomak language" written with the greek alphabet.)

Do you know in Sarajevo now they speak to each other three languages? Maybe here will be the same soon.

Meanwhile the Wahabbi mosques are springing up like mushrooms, probably with saudi funds.

I can imagine our own secessionists in 10 to 15 years.
And there are many more places like this around the world.

 

Yes, I completely understand what you're saying, grobar, and as I've said before, I wish people would just stop all this secessionist nonsense. I don't like seeing functioning (more or less) countries break up into a patchwork of quarreling havenots. If people could just worry about the problems they have already instead of creating new ones by plunging their country into chaos like that, we'd be golden. But unfortunately they'd much rather all go their own ways than continue to live together, like they apparently have for generations without much trouble.
IMO once the flame of secessionism has been lit it's really a lose-lose either way, but trying to solve the situation by using force will definitely cause more and longer-lasting damage than just letting them go their own merry ways.
If Georgia had accepted the South Ossetian bid for independence and just been good neighbors to them, who knows ... maybe 20 years down the road the Ossetians would have decided that maybe things weren't so bad when South Ossetia and Georgia were still one country after all. Maybe after a while the 2 countries could have re-united or at least developed a level of cooperation so that it barely made a difference whether they're one country or not.
They way things turned out instead it's rather unlikely that South Ossetia will ever want to have anything to do with Georgia again.

I know that it's not as simple as saying "Georgia was wrong in doing that" or "South Ossetia should not have done this" but honestly, I believe that just swallowing the bitter pill of letting SO break away would have been by far the lesser evil.

 

http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-south-ossetia-the-war-of-my-dreams/

 

no-no-no-no, u draw a really wrong example.
Another ethnic groups, another situation and different results.....

 

can u give me a link to the english version, please?

 

Looks rather like a fragmentation bomb to me. Either way, not something you want to use near a substantial civilian population unless you must (i.e with ground fighting going on in the immediate vicinity).

 

quite sarcastic

 

cc, but apart from the cynical remarks it's pretty much spot on in most respects

 

this trully sucks, by reading both russian and western media about the ossetian confict, I just can't figure out who says the damn truth. It's like reading about two different wars. I know to few about that to take any side arguments for granted.

btw http://english.pravda.ru/news/world/12-08-2008/106073-poland-0

I'm really curious about Putins / Medvedev reply, bet he'll be kinda pissed off and gonna issue some threats ... again

 

there is none, this is the best i can do

http://translate.google.com/transla...kowych,artykul.html&hl=pl&ie=UTF8&sl=pl&tl=en

note:

"Zniszczeniu" - damaged
"nalocie" - airstrike
"powtórzmy" - let's make it clear / let's repeat
"rozpryskowych" - cluster (bomb)
"rozpadając" - to fall appart (meaning the bomb)

 

Txh Grobar, very nice explaination.
Just my 5 cents.

Serbia, lead by "war criminals" Miloshevich and Karajich, was try to hold Kosovo and considered as an Evil Agressor.
Poor small albanian Kosovo considered as a victim.
And US was help Kosovo to became an independent and free democratic republic (heh) and considered as Big Good Boys, Source of World Delight.

now look at 8/8/8

Young democracy Georgia lead by president Saakhashvili is try to hold South Ossetia and consider as a victim.
Poor small South Ossetia consider as an Evil Agressor and genicidize georgians.
And Russia help South Ossetia to become an independent and free democratic republic and consider as Big Bad and Ugly Bear who want only blood, kill and rape.

something wrong here, i mean...............

 

I dunno which is which

 

Cluster bombs consist of a large number of small bomblets, each of them a small bomb in its own right. The pellet shown in the picture you posted looks a bit small to pack any useful amount of explosive power, which is why my guess is that it's some kind of fragmentation bomb. The idea behind a fragmentation bomb is that it sends small fragments of metal flying in all directions, sort of like a shotgun. That said, I'm obviously not an arms expert and this may still turn out to be a cluster bomb, but I've never seen such an unusual looking bomblet.