1.60 is great, but one question...

The lattest of your sources is very poor and unaccurate.
I could retirieve some very accurate data (italian military aircraft enceclopedia):

-about 200 a/cs built 'till the armistice
----37 of them served the co-belligerant forces after the armistice
----29 of them served the RSI (Axis) air forces (ANR) after the armistice
-112 a/cs bult after the armistice, all gone to the ANR (Axis).

if you cross employiment time data and production numbers data it results that the 205s employed by the allied forces are way less thatn the 10% of the total.
And this is not considering actual flight time (RSI fighter groups were performing up to 6 sorties a day for the most of the war, while co-belligerant groups were almost unemployed), which would actually make that number much, much smaller.

In a few words, red 205 would be ridicolous.


Regards




Promet

 

1st - to avoid misunderstanding:
I have no doubt that italian pilots fought in WW2 as brave and proudly as their collegues from Germany, Japan, England, USA, USSR, Poland, France or whatever nation.

By asking why the 205 has been added I didnt wanted to make fun about these real pilots but asking the reason for adding a plane which was produced in such low numbers.
And exec gave a good answer on this.

Then there was the idea for making this plane available for both - Gold and Red, which I thought was historicly correct.

You started with the thesis that Mc205 NEVER flew at the side of the allies.

So I made some research in internet and was able to find a photo of Mc205 in colors of pro-Allies italian Air Force during the war.

Then you corrected your theses from "Never" to "10%" and say that this 10% Mc205 werent used by the Allies.

It is also logical that the Allies - withtheir great numbers of operational aircrafts would not have the need to use their italians allies so often as the Germans had to do, who had less planes and need to throw the last reserved in the overstretched battlelines.

But this wasnt the question.

The question was, if there were MC205 flying for the Allies during WW2.

First you said "Never" - now you say "10%".

For the FH game I think it would be nice to make very few planes available for both sides - especially those which are no uberplanes when they enter the RPS.

The Mc205 is - as I heared from those who have flown it at FH now - not better than the 109 or ki61. So it wouldnt hurt to allow also Reds to fly this plane in some future after a new FH-update. They could get a new skin - with the green-white-red-roundel instead of the fascist symbol.

Also we could think about adding the Hurricane I in finnish markings for Gold - which is also no uberplane (at no time of the RPS).

 

i see ki44 while plaing offline... it's freaking similiar, only wings near fuselage are different, and painting is different.

 

What I meant is that the old Ki-43 model is no longer available for the Ki-43. Instead, the new model of the Ki-44 is used for both planes (but with different colors)

Which is very strange.

EDIT : Here are some screenies

1. Old Ki-43
2. New Ki-43
3. Ki44

As you see, even the new models have different tails. What is going on?

 

I play in 3D - and there i have a dark green ki43 and a light grey ki44. Both planes look different in outer appearance - the ki44 is not a repainted ki43. Maybe its a problem of 2D-modus ?

 

Babek, you continue booming on on how Promet went from never to somewhile in small numbers, but you fail to give a good reason for making the plane red as well.

If Promet's numbers are accurate, the plane would've been in comparisson of so minimal a difference that I agree it should be a gold-only plane. The reason you give that it would be fun, and historically correct would be a first timer. Planes in the past have never been selected to fly for the red or gold side as well because of such a criterium. In the past I remember you to be one of the 'realism in favor of gameplay' posters, but now I see you proposing - and sticking to that proposal - the gameplay be primary over realism.

<Z>

 

If realism is the criteria the 205 shouldnt have been added because it was not an important plane.

So if it has been decided to use such a plane - although it has been produced in such low numbers - why we should refuse Red to use this plane too ? They also used only a very low number of Mc205 - so there is no difference in argumentation between the reason for Gold to use it or for Red to use it.

 

when i see Ki44 it looks like F4U-1a - some error about shape data not available...your's is not so bad, much closer than mine, CBFS

 

Ok i have question...why when i go to the test arena the blue writing tells me to download the new fhinstaller???? and when i try to fly it tells me my misc bin is wrong?
Whats going on and is it my end or the fh end? Yes i have downloaded and even been in for a fly in the main arena...

 

Invalid.

In the past planes produced in small numbers have been added as well, there were about 400 F4U1C, but even then iEN added the plane, and took it out later on as well. In WB as continued to be developed by FH we see the same thing, some planes who are distinct and pretty well known have been added as well. One of such examples would be the N1K1, actually the Ki44 hasn't been produced in sufficient numbers to reach the bottom line FH set forth once either. So the bottom line isn't well respected, but is that a reason to give reds a plane on an equal basis when it was only flown in a 1:10 comparisson ratio, and when it hardly saw any action at all? It comes down to opinions and where to draw a numerical line, I don't think we'll ever be able to convince one another.


<Z>

 

ki44 was built in high numbers (1000+) and played an important role in defending japanese homeland in many operations. It was the japanese interceptor with the best climbrate (although first not well armed with 4x12mm - so it get later different cannon equipments from 20mm to 40 mm).

It was also used during a long period in the war - 1942 until 1945.

Mc205 was built in very low numbers and these were scattered between the two italian airforces.

Your argumentation for refusing Reds the use of Mc205 is, that for the Allied Air Force the free italian air force was only a minor auxiliary troop of no real use in war.

But the same argumentation coul be used for the Gold side.
After the italian air force was devided it received its orders from german superiors and was also only used as a minor auxiliary force.

So if the one side could use planes which were only used in low numbers and of limited military worth why the other shouldnt ?

 

OK I was wrong about the "never", but you can see yourself that the 205 employiment on allied side was extremely neglegible: 37 used planes, each of them employed much less than their axis counterpart.
Also consider the almost total absence of spare parts, since Macchi factory was in the german-controlled area for the whole war after the armistice.
I will make some more researches to check out when was the last operational flight of co-belligerent italian air force 205s.
Basing on the same thesis you should ask for allied 190s and 109s as well, since some captured planes were employed (possibly more than 37).
Therefore I still think it would be a nonsense to see red 205s.

I gave you one more answer, that I will make more exhaustive here: the 205 is nothing but a 202 with heavier weapon loadout and more powerful engine, besides a few more neglegible details.
There is less difference between 202 and the 205 than between the 109g2 and the 109g6/r6 or between different versions of I16s, Spitfires, Zeros, 190s, Hurricanes, or whatever model of plane which remained in production for 2 years or more during the WWII.
The fact itself that they bring a different label is just about Macchi's "naming policy" (possibly due to propaganda) and not a substantial data: it could be called either 202-II, 202b or 202/r6 as well.
Therefore IMO it would be correct to consider the total number of 202s and 205s alltogether, thus braking through the #1000 barrage.

Besides historical data, ask FH admins how many sorties have been flown on B5N and 202 in any TOD, and you'll understand the probable reason why the 205 has been added first: B6N would be very likely a plane for you only


As for performance: 205 is actually supposed to have been an uber plane in 1943 'till at least mid 44: same engine as the 109 but much better dive speed (close to the P51, while 109 had great compression issues) and better maneuvrability.
Besides bombers, they have been shooting down Spitfires, Munstangs, Lightnings and Thunderbolts until the last day of war.
When Paolix will have translated the text about 205 VS Spits fights you will read yourself that italian pilots used to consider the Veltro more maneuvrable than Spitfires V (when usually any party tends to consider the opponent plane better than the own one for justifying defeats or boosting victories).
Of course, this does not mean it has been modelled this way in FH


Anyway I see the reason for you to support a nonsense opinion:

Best regards


Promet

 

I know perfectly well how many Ki44's were built, and the 1000 isn't enough to guarantee an addition to FH. My point is that even the Ki44 with its 1000+ didn't reach the bottom line, but it got included, the MC205V with it's 250+ didn't reach the bottom line either, and it's included now. So where is that bottom line? If the bottom line is at 66 planes then sure it should be available to the reds as well, if it isn't (which would be logical, 66 is ridiculous), it should be available ONLY to the golds.

Your response that the gold plane shouldn't be included either according to my reasoning would mean the plane wouldn't be added altogether. So then, here we are again, difference in what's the bottom line for a plane to be available to a specific side. You know I can imagine how many fighters fell in hands of the Germans after their invasions, or of the Japanese, or vice versa. There's really no point in making the plane available to the red side because 66 (wow, oh so many) flew for their real life counterpart. If you make a sum of all captured planes I wouldn't even be amazed if the ammount reached the 66 bottom line you're suggesting.

Hell, why haven't we modeled the Tiger Moth?


<Z>

 

Zembla they were not 66 but 37.

 

definitely!
i asked a neighbour veteran about the best plane he flown on the war.
probably i formulated it badly, because he answered:
"messer [109]. just because when you are reconing over enemy territory, noone of germans attacks you. as for frontline - you cross it within tight formation of yaks/laggs".
it is very reasonable since he was an il-2 pilot, section leader.
anyways, it demonstrates that conventional pilot could use trophy without many problems.

same here.

 

Bug. thanks.

 

@babek

Why should the Polish want PZL-23 (a rather slow and capable of taking only 700kgs of bombs line-bomber) and not the PZL-24 (awarded with the title "the fastest and heaviest armed fighter plane of 1935")? Pls correct that small mistake in your post

 

Glad to help.



Since I'm returning after the summer, I hope they're fixed by then.

 

Even if 205 served with Cobelligerant air force I think that a red 205 is not something to be seen. The least thing we need in this RPS environment is someone willing to perform duels 1vs1 in Main Arena only to show how good he is and how cheater/runner the other one is. Moreover historically a 205 vs 205 was out of question, they had different tasks and different targets...

Yes, the 205 seems a little slow than it is supposed to be an airplane with DB605... Bill Gunston "German, Italian, and Japanese Fighters of World War II" rate C202 at 596km/h and C205 642km/h max speed.
In the file "205vsSpit" pointed by Paolix is interesting to note that when 205 chased B-24 on their way home from Germany to Lybia or Tunisia over Adriatic See, they counted on 200km/h of speed advantage over bombers which flew at 450km/h to perform multiples head-on attacks.
If it's too much a 640km/h 205 in July 1943, please increase max speed and delay its availability when it is, errr, less disturbing...

 

In 1943 Italy surrenderd unconditionally. Their air force became devided - one group was under allied command/control and the other under german command/control.

Neither the germans nor the allies considered these italians as trustworthy allies - so its absolutely logical that the Allies used their italian pilots for minor operations - like flying transport planes instead of supporting them with new fighters ans send them into battle.

The italian pilots under german control also were used like an auxiliary force.

So - its not important if the one side had 50 or 150 Mc205 - these planes only saw limited operations and in a global view the actions of these planes were not important in WW2. Its the same with the Ar234 which had some nice successes, was flown at the end of WW2 - but because of its low number it had no effect from a global point of view.

If FH wants to represent nations with their planes - maybe it should be a better idea to put in the famous italian planes they used BEFORE Italy surrendered.

Fighters like the Mc200 Saetta fighter, Fiat CR 32 or Fiat CR 42 Falco or Fiat G 50 or also bombers like the SM79.

Also it could be considered to add planes of other nations - like from France. Poland, Finland or Romania.

Especially France - which was one of the superpowers of Europe in WW2 - should get at least one plane in FH.