Хартманн - Кожедуб.

So they had incredibly good flaks!

[qoute]самолеты, сбитые в групповом бою, в КА не записывались НИКОМУ.[/qoute]

I won`t argue. Unfortunately I have read too few about the soviet army. Now they publish too few russian books here. And when the "gentle revolution" came I was 8 years old. I just explained how did the german do it and compared it with british and american pilots.

 

2 grobar
About Hartmann
Every "Hartmann promoter" explains the inflated scoring of LW aces with the fact what they started as Spanish War, have lots of experience in BOB, France, e,t,c,
But no one remembers the year when Hartmann starting his combat sorties Quite late to have any experience in Spain, dont him ?

 

1943 if I remember right? First flight was against Po-something, a soviet bomber? He bailed or ditched? Argh, everything is a mess in my head.

This only shows how good is he.

 

Grobar, scores on Eastrn front and on the Defence of Reich (PVO) are so different because every B-17 or P-51 shot down over Germany or France could be found on the ground. In the Eastern front they could boast according to their fantasy doubled by the understanding of their racial superiority.

Huh, 13 IL-2s in one sortie, all sank in Ladoga lake? I am not a complete stupid to believe it.

As for propaganda - I agree with you that we have a rare opportunity to see the truth in our hard times. But yankees are already here with bubble-gum, hamburgers, and Bzhezinskiy's "Grand Chessboard" concept. It means that their goal is to make us think that Russians and other Slavic nations are second-rate imbeciles, incapable of doing anything worth their Tampax or Colgate TV commercial crap. That's why I feel like I want to tear any nazi/nato (nazi=nato?) supporter to a British flag.

Well, I have seen a modern Russian 10th grade History schoolbook (1938 till now). Only 10 pages about WWII. 5 of them about Brave Yankees in the Pacific. 10 lines about Stalingrad...

Please, check this two links:
http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw/Forum14/HTML/000240.html
http://www.airforce.ru/history/korea/index.htm

It's about Korean war. Good example of how their propaganda work. First link is my discussion on AGW, and it will help you understand HOW they score their "kills". Second is an extremely interesting article on the same subject.

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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
wb:boroda
Commissar 25th IAP VVS

 

Btw is he still alive? I haven`t seen anywhere a notices about him passing away so I guess he is still alive.

 

Well, it is very likely that some pilots boasted their stats to get decorations and promotions. But I don`t think it is the common situation in Luftwaffe.

I haven`t heard of that thing over Ladoga. Was he alone, or there were other german pilots around to corroborate him? Did he kill them all at once, or one by one?

The simplest thing is to scan the bottom of the lake. Btw, is it one of those huge lakes around Sankt-Peterburg?

Otherwise, the Luftwaffe stats just couldn`t be boasted by propaganda, because Germany was the DEFEATED country. The statistics are provided not by Goebel`s ministry but by the Allied comissions. It is more probable to diminished than inflated.

I know people who have shot down 5-6 enemies in one sortie on the arena (old gunnery ) although the middle-class players here are much better pilots than the real life ones (but we are foolhardier).

So I don`t think it is impossible to shoot down 10 or more fighters in one sortie if you keep your ammo tight.

 

[This message has been edited by prapor (edited 13 June 2000).]

деды могли переделать его? Почему большевики со знаменем Земля-Крестьянам! в начале-середине 30 годов забрали все в колхозы? Чего ж тогда не взбунтовалось крестьянство?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Ты почитал бы историю - в то время были сплошь и рядом крестьянские бунты, в подавлении которых отлично специализировался наш доблесный маршал Тухачевский.

 

Предыдущий мессадж -neon-'у

 

Наверное я не правильно написал. Бунт и восстание две разные вещи. Я имел ввиду массовое восстание. В РККА не только рабочие из городов были, а и те же сыновья тех же крестьян которых подавляли .

P.S. Суворов тоже отличился в Польше, что однако ни сколько не преуменьшает его победы и военные труды.



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See you in sky
мл. лейтенант 228 ShAD VVS RKKA