He-177 and the "Game of the Seven Errors"

He-177 and the "Game of the Seven Errors"

Heinkel He-177 Greif needs some serious reworking on FH, IMHO

Although I'm not sure if the service ceiling was 5800m or 8800m (I've got different answers from different sources - can someone post reliable sources here?) it indeed could carry 2000kg bombs.

Has any of you tried to fly these birds carrying 2 x 1000Kg + 2 x 2000Kg? It just won't climb at all! Sure, you can use WEP and climb for 30 seconds, and that's it! I've tried it even with 10% fuel only and results were the same (another error, fuel should change climb rate and the whole behavior of the aircraft I think).

What about stalling? Jesus Christ, trying to do a 180-degree turn is an extreme sport cause you don't ever know if you will make it. Yes, I can do it but it's still too much of an "ez stall" as far as I'm concerned.

So far what I see is that everyone is giving up on it because the plane is so screwed up it won't pay to fly it. And that's just not fair.

We don't have anything like B17s, B24s neither B25s. He-177 comes out late in the war. Ju52 carries 8 troopers + 1 commando, Li-2/DC-3 carries 14 troopers + 1 commandos. i16s, P39s, LA5s and F4Fs can turn on a dime. We've basically 2 fighters and 1 bomber that can take off from a CV deck. And we ALL know that Allied Forces never had a damn V1!

Is all that fair? If the point for FH developers (and/or for all the russians) is to have someone to shoot at and easily kill, I'd suggest them to go play Quake!

 

hmm.
let's try to decompose that flow of feelings.

q1.he-177 fm is ugly. maxload is not portable.
a1.he-177 fm must be fixed in incoming update

q2.ju-52 has 8 troops vs Li-2's 14.
a2.i'm lobbying rgreat to change the number of troops to equal values.

q3.axis has nothing like fort.
a3.it never had. greif here is my hard work to balance forts and livers.

q4.golds have nothing like mitch.
a4.88 is much better, and reds have nothing like 88. it's gold advantage.

q5.p-39, la-5, f4f are very maneuverable
a5.they really were irl. but zeke outturns all of these.

q6.few gold deck crafts
a6.hmm. so what you think? me-155? a7m? unlikely. (i'd like, staff dislike). expect "n1k1-ab", again for artifical balance.

q7.allies had no v-1
a7.allies had mlrs.

q8.staff is red biased
a8.deja vue. many "russians" believe the staff is gold biased: overmodelled fritz, overmodelled folgore, dora...

q9.staff must go quake.
a9.they are hosts in their own house.

q10.fuhrer doesn't like this game.
a10.all have right to have own opinions.

q11.(asked many times, though not here) when update is coming?
a11.less than two weeks already. yes.

 

I'm crying (c) Stefan

It's nothing enough for golds.

 

I do agree on the unstableness of the he-177, hard bird to fly, I read it come out in 1942, and it taken out of servise in 1944, because many engine fires, bad handling, It just was a POOR plane, failed project
I also read that it carries 4xmissile ((anti ship kind)) and only 2000kg bombs,

Is it possible to give it the ability to launch 4 V1 missilse??

 

Originally posted by -exec-

q1.he-177 fm is ugly. maxload is not portable.
a1.he-177 fm must be fixed in incoming update

That's great news. It was about time.

q2.ju-52 has 8 troops vs Li-2's 14.
a2.i'm lobbying rgreat to change the number of troops to equal values.

That's very nice of you too.

q3.axis has nothing like fort.
a3.it never had. greif here is my hard work to balance forts and livers.

It's indeed a great work of yours but it doesn't help much if you can't fly it, don't you agree?

q4.golds have nothing like mitch.
a4.88 is much better, and reds have nothing like 88. it's gold advantage.

I wasn't complaining about them specifically and never would. I was complaining about the set of planes as a whole.

q5.p-39, la-5, f4f are very maneuverable
a5.they really were irl. but zeke outturns all of these.

Yes, but do you truly believe that a F4F or an i16 could turn with a Ki43? Really? What about a La5 turning inside a 109, flapped, trimmed? I wasn't there dude, but I don't think that's right.

If they were that good, there shouldn't be 45,000 russian planes downed on WWII.

q6.few gold deck crafts
a6.hmm. so what you think? me-155? a7m? unlikely. (i'd like, staff dislike). expect "n1k1-ab", again for artifical balance.

This is a very hard spot, right there. Do you think that a P38 or a F4U ever met with a 109 in midair (maybe they have, I don't know)? How would them behave? Lightining has got the odds? The Messer? It's a very tough call to balance things here cause in European Theather, there were no CV battles. Still, in WB fixture we need to have more balance. You can take off from the CV in a Hawg, SBD, TBF and what are their payload? A lot! What is their dweeb otto firepower?? Unbelievably destructable. Try a Betty, Kate or a Val for a fast death.

q7.allies had no v-1
a7.allies had mlrs.

How much payload did they carry? How much damage could them cause?

q8.staff is red biased
a8.deja vue. many "russians" believe the staff is gold biased: overmodelled fritz, overmodelled folgore, dora...

I can see that happening. I guess it depends on how much WWII aircraft knowledge they have. I see some people with almost none, complaining just because they can't kill them, while the problem relies in the fact they don't have enough skill or strategy to fly a plane in a way they can defeat the enemy. In WB, if you can't fly worth a damn, you can't kill crap. That's the beauty of the game.

q9.staff must go quake.
a9.they are hosts in their own house.

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

q10.fuhrer doesn't like this game.
a10.all have right to have own opinions.

In this aspect you are *very* wrong. I love this game, I love it so much that I come here to complain about things that don't bother me at all but do bother friends of mine, countrymates and even red fellows, which sometimes, can't speak english well enough to make their opinions be heard. And for those, I take the pressure of posting such a thread, in the hope someone will listen.
I wouldn't be playing it for over 5 years if I didn't like it. It just seems to be headed in the wrong direction and I'd like to point the flaws, we've seen so far.

q11.(asked many times, though not here) when update is coming?
a11.less than two weeks already. yes.

Thank you and the developers.

Buddy, I'm not trying to incite a revolt here. I'm just trying to get things balanced as you seem to be doing, according to what you stated.

I just got tired (as many of my friends from *both sides*) of waiting for replies from developers which never got here. And I was as polite as one could be in all of them.

Anyhow, thanks for your reply and the time you dedicate to it. I really appreciated that.

Regards,

 

a1-b. i'm not rgreat. he does not allow me to edit arcrafts, and he can aggree with me after i spend a vaste amount of time persistently suggesting again and again the same things. but i cannot request more work than he can do.

a3-b. buggy or not, greif is flying and harm enemy. also see a1-b.

a4-b. the row of 109 is much longer than yaks or spits. what else? 190a-2,-6, 205v/3, j2m3? next time.

a5-b. ? what 109? gustav-10?! expectedly.
? incoming cannon i-16 turns worse than ki-43-2.
? consider that first turn is much better than sustained. 190 can outturn even hurr in this situation.

i don't know where did you dug 45 thousands, but let's believe it's correct. i may answer that qualification of opposing pilots on soviet front differs many times. german kept all their experience, and cadet could fly only after 2-3 years of combat practice, while soviet pilots at the moment of barbarossa hardly had a 20hours of flight-time. actually, the qualification of soviet pilots was not a primary that time. novice pilot in a cheap il-2 could competely pay back all expenditures just in two successful sortees, and even gain an extra income.

a6-b. we cannot make a barely ufo, loading existing 109t and future n1k1-jb with a thunderbolt load. even 155 and a7m had little load. suisei/tenzan are a things to model sometime, if it's a point of your discussion.

a7-b. just look at facts. 14/07/41 a battery of capt I.A.Flerov (7 mobile bm-13 launchers) completely demolished an entire railroad station Orsha just in several seconds (one salvo) including all german echelons with technics and squads there.

 

I think this is a bad idea, as making everything the same just reduces the variety in the game. I think the 8+commandos+mortar was a decent balance to 14+speed (which IMO was better even then), and it made for an interesting difference between each side even for the transports. Taking that difference away will just make the game a little bit more boring.

I too would definitely like to see the Greif get more horsepower, but I wouldn't call it 'useless' as it is now, far from it. It gives Gold much-needed heavy bombing power, which is a major gameplay fault of Warbirds as made by iEN.

Gold carrier planes are really, really bad though. The G4M is good, and superior by far to both the SBD and TBF, but the fighters are completely crappy. Both the A6M and 109T are obsolete the moment they become available, and it just gets worse and worse as the RPS progresses. By 1943, gold has no use for carriers. Without air cover, your good bomber isn't going to be able to hit targets, and you won't be able to stop the enemy from sinking your carrier.

Calling the game Red-biased is just silly, though. There are advantages, but there are disadvantages too. Just avoid one and exploit the other, and it's not that hard to be successful. This works for both teams, in all years of the war.

PS-The He-177 is almost as good as B-24, and the Ju88 is much better than B-25. If you want to complain about a bomber disparity, complain about the Mosquito

 

Re: He-177 and the "Game of the Seven Errors"

Hi Fuhrer,

>Although I'm not sure if the service ceiling was 5800m or 8800m (I've got different answers from different sources - can someone post reliable sources here?) it indeed could carry 2000kg bombs.

From "Heinkel - Chronik und Typenblätter der Firma Heinkel Flugzeugbau", a post-WW2 reprint of the Heinkel type data sheets by the Heinkel company (ISBN 3-925505-08-3):

Heinkel He 177A-5/R7

Service ceiling with bomb load: 6800 m

Time to climb to 2000 m: 8.8 min
Time to climb to 4000 m: 19.8 min
Time to climb to 6000 m: 36.5 min

>Has any of you tried to fly these birds carrying 2 x 1000Kg + 2 x 2000Kg? It just won't climb at all!

I just tried it out last tour of duty, and could climb to at least 15000 ft with 10% fuel on normal power. I accidently climbed at 165 mph most of the time, climb actually improved at 130 mph. I admit it took a long time though

If you take just 6 x 250 kg bombs (dropping half of the load after take-off) and 20% fuel, the Heinkel He 177 actually out-climbs the Junkers Ju 88 though the latter only carries 4 x 250 kg bombs.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

Hi Exec,

>q1.he-177 fm is ugly. maxload is not portable.
>a1.he-177 fm must be fixed in incoming update

Actually, the maximum bomb load can be carried OK.

>q2.ju-52 has 8 troops vs Li-2's 14.
>a2.i'm lobbying rgreat to change the number of troops to equal values.

As Mekh pointed out, it adds to the game not to have equal capabilities for both sides. Game balance can also be achieved by having different, but equivalent capabilities. (I think it was a good idea to give Reds commandos, though.)

>q3.axis has nothing like fort.
>a3.it never had. greif here is my hard work to balance forts and livers.

The Greif actually had pretty similar capabilities to the B-17 in real life. Adding the He 177 was a very good move with regard to game balance, which no other online game either recognized or accomplished. Way to go!

>q6.few gold deck crafts
>a6.hmm. so what you think? me-155? a7m? unlikely. (i'd like, staff dislike). expect "n1k1-ab", again for artifical balance.

>q8.staff is red biased
>a8.deja vue. many "russians" believe the staff is gold biased: overmodelled fritz, overmodelled folgore, dora...

I don't think there a bias for any side, and I believe that Freehost models aircraft with better historical accuracy than IEN did.

In my opinion, the Me 109F-4 is better than in reality over 17000 ft only. The MC 202 is better than the Me 109E, but since it has a stronger engine, it really should. The Fw 190D-9 is modelled fairly accurately, but it's a 1900 HP version only. (There also was a 2100 HP version.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

Hi Exec,

>a6-b. we cannot make a barely ufo, loading existing 109t and future n1k1-jb with a thunderbolt load.

If it comes to a carrier-capable attack aircraft with a useful load, maybe it would be a good idea to make the Ju 87 carrier capable? It would be easy to do and give the Golds a better carrier attack capability without ruining the game balance.

Still not the same as an F6F or an F4U, but a progress

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

Hi Mekh,

>I too would definitely like to see the Greif get more horsepower, but I wouldn't call it 'useless' as it is now, far from it. It gives Gold much-needed heavy bombing power, which is a major gameplay fault of Warbirds as made by iEN

One that it shares with Air Warrior and Aces High. Freehost is ahead of all of them!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

How many of those did they build, HoHun (the 2100 HP version I mean)?

 

Hi Red Ant,

>How many of those did they build, HoHun (the 2100 HP version I mean)?

That's hard to say since 2100 HP is actually an engine rating.

I guess that at some time in 1945, it became possible to convert the existing aircraft from 1900 HP to 2100 HP war emergency power (maybe by adding MW50, which the Oldenburg-Rüstsatz-equipped D-9s apparently lacked). Most documents refer to the Fw 190D-9 as a 2100 HP aircraft, so it must have been the power Focke-Wulf intended as a standard.

The exact history unfortunately is somewhat of a mystery :-(

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

The G4M carries 12x50, 4x250, or 1x800. The Ju87 only carries 3x250 or 1x1000..the extra 200kg in the heaviest bombload isn't much of an advantage when you consider the G4M has a bombsight, is faster, climbs much better, and has a strong tailgun. A carrier Stuka wouldn't be all that useful.

What Gold needs is a carrier fighter worth a damn. I guess the N1K1 would be an improvement, but I have to admit, I haven't tried it much.

 

Hi Mekh,

>The G4M carries 12x50, 4x250, or 1x800.

However, the G4M can't dive bomb and - unlike the Ju 87 - was never carrier-capable anyway. The Ju 87 is no Jabo, but closer to being one than the G4M for sure.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

Re: Re: He-177 and the "Game of the Seven Errors"

I've tried and I can't make it climb on speed 130, 135, 145 or 150. Are you cheating or something? (just kidding)

Will try on speed 165 if we ever get to 1944 since we never got to Aug 1945 this TOD and again I wasn't able to try the Me262.

Regards,

 

Good answers as allways exec.
That red/gold bias thing is funny. can't avoid it.


About turning horiz.

Exec you are right 190a4 outturns hurricane as long as it has speed.

La5 and La5FN could turn with 109g6 and g2 historically.
Source finnish pilots.

109g6r6 could outturn p51b easily, source finnish pilots again. (Juutilainen? got aim on p51b after 2 complete horizontal circles and shot down p51b. His plane was wing cannon variant) Finnish pilots didn't want to turn with russian planes in their r6 viersion messerschmitts(rarely in normal 109 either). They only used E fight tactics. r6 versions were very unpopular since it made 109 sluggish and reduced climb.

Plz. Don't do any changes for balance. Only for realism of Flight Models and immersion.


Few notes and questions

1. We did little test with nicae in training arena today. f4f and SBD are immune to 7.9mm. One clip of spit mk.1 wasnt enough to kill my f4f from d1 dead 6.

It took over 1600 rounds to kill f4f. And it was easily flyable even after losing control surfaces from tail. hstab and vstab were never damaged.
(pic attached)

2. Has rgreat taken a look at Kurt Tanks 190 dive test which we posted on 190 dive thread?

3. What you feel about roll inertia in WB? (major difference to AH FM)
Before you say anything, remember that Pyro has modeled both of FMs.
Controls are more snappy in AH and planes feel light. In WB even 109e feels like big brute. Is this slowness of reaction in WB roll (early WBs didnt have it i remember) added to make WB less micro-warpish? So, are there any possibilities/need to improve FH netcode or is it possible to remove these restrictions? My ex-granma rolls over snappier than WB 190A.

 

Originally posted by -exec-

a3-b. buggy or not, greif is flying and harm enemy. also see a1-b.

B17s, B24s, B25s and Mosquitos (as reminded by mekr--) are not buggy and do harm the enemy. Badly, by the way.

a5-b. ? what 109? gustav-10?! expectedly.

Bf109G2

? consider that first turn is much better than sustained. 190 can outturn even hurr in this situation.

I don't wanna go in there but yes, the 190 was a lot more maneuverable than it's modelled here, though I don't see much reason to complain and it can probably start a jihad here in FH

a6-b. we cannot make a barely ufo, loading existing 109t and future n1k1-jb with a thunderbolt load. even 155 and a7m had little load. suisei/tenzan are a things to model sometime, if it's a point of your discussion.

Agreed. It just wouldn't be historically correct. Let's see what you can come up with for CV Battles' balance, and don't take me wrong, I really do aprecciate your efforts.

a7-b. just look at facts. 14/07/41 a battery of capt I.A.Flerov (7 mobile bm-13 launchers) completely demolished an entire railroad station Orsha just in several seconds (one salvo) including all german echelons with technics and squads there.

So you trying to that say that a Katiusza and a V1 (see attached image) could cause the same damage, or even worse, the BM-13 could cause more damage? I find that hard to believe.

 

Don't state that HoHun or they'll never fix it!

Warm regards,

 

v1

I read in the American Air Force Museum website that the allies indeed had a 'v-1' bomb. I can't remember the name, but it almost the same as the v-1. So 'reds' did have the fau.

www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/

i think that's the link to the site. Look around for it. I'll try to find the bomb there and post it