P47D x FW190

Discussion in 'Engineering Retrospective' started by _strafe_, May 26, 2007.

  1. _strafe_

    _strafe_ Well-Known Member

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    P47 x FW190

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2007
  2. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    same as in FH ;p
     
  3. Fucketeer

    Fucketeer Banned

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    ^^ What he said.
     
  4. fatale

    fatale Well-Known Member

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    Check Republic
    which 190?
     
  5. rudeboy

    rudeboy Well-Known Member

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    Tower of power.
    16 june, 1943?????
    26000 ft? 6000 ft?
    P-47 was only deployed three months before the report was written.
    P-47s were doing rhubarb missions in the beginning of their deployment.
    They were B models, not as handy at low alt as later D models. Had not the new Propellor.
    Had not yet developed a doctrine of NEVER DOGFIGHT. Had not yet developed the doctrine of BREAK OFF THE FIGHT AT 10000FT.
    Had not yet developed Wolfpack Tactics.
    And a 190 a8 at 26000 ft?? Not the best alt for a 190 a8 [or a4 more likely]. So how is it the 190 can climb better? Simple - as it said in the report, it could climb steeper.
    The report, as quoted, seems rather tentative, good starting point for the Eagle Squadron's guys, who had to fly them and were prone to forget they weren't in Spitfires anymore......
     
  6. Red Ant

    Red Ant Well-Known Member

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    No, what he said! ^^ :D No, really ... good post, biles, I agree.
     
  7. spuint

    spuint Well-Known Member

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  8. -exec-

    -exec- FH Consultant

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    moved for saving
     
  9. vasco

    vasco Well-Known Member

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    LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL spuint
     
  10. RolandGarros

    RolandGarros Well-Known Member

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    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

    FUCKEN LOL


    i lol'd
     
  11. HoHun

    HoHun FH Beta Tester

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    Re: P47 x FW190

    Information: Republic P-43 Lancer

    Hi everyone,

    Here's some information on an aircraft I don't suggest for inclusion.

    It's the Republic P-43 Lancer that saw action in low numbers with the Chinese Air Force and Chennault's Flying Tigers.

    Here's an estimate of P-43 performance, compared to P-40E performance because that was the other fighter type the Flying Tigers were using:

    http://hometown.aol.de/HoHunKhan/P-43AvsP-40E.gif

    When calculating P-43 performance, I noticed that the Freehost P-47 turns much too quickly.

    If the P-43, which has a similar wing as the P-47, had the same clmax as the Freehost P-47, it would be as good a turner as the Yak-3.

    The P-43 in reality was a heavy, underpowered fighter, and I'm sure it came nowhere near the manoeuvrability of the Yak-3. Maybe it was comparable to the MiG-3 at best.

    Here's more on the P-43:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_P-43

    Regards,

    Henning (HoHun)

    -----------------------------------------------

    1.64R2: P-47 Thunderbolt Variants

    Hi everyone,

    I'd like to suggest to add some more Thunderbolt variants, or at least make a different selection than the C and D we have now.

    Here are my candidates:

    - P-47D-5RE: Razorback, toothpick propeller, water injection, 1 x 500 lbs bomb*

    - P-47D-15RE: Same as D-5RE, but underwing racks for 2 x 1000 lbs (-> slower speed even with empty racks)

    - P-47D-25RE: First bubbletop, increased internal fuel

    - P-47D-30RE: Same as D-25RE, but adds dive flaps and rockets

    * We can use our P-47C model for this. The real P-47C had inferior engine cooling and no water injection and was much inferior to the P-47C we have now.

    Is this possible?

    - P-47D-5, D-15, D-25: Poor elevator control and nose-down tendency in fast dives
    - P-47D-30: Good elevator control and flies straight in a dive

    I'd also like to suggest to use the P-40 rear view for the razorback P-47!

    The current turn rate of the P-47D (1 km, WEP, 100% fuel) is too high. I tested it in 1.64R2 and got a sustained turn circle time of 23.2 s. At 14500 lbs weight, that yields a clmax of 1.55. I don't have real life data, but as a thin high-speed wing, it should be good for perhaps 1.20 only. That would yield a circle time of 25.7 s.

    (I calculated performance of the P-43A-1 "Lancer" with clmax 1.55. This gave me a 3.3 t aircraft with just 1200 HP turning as fast as the Yak-3!)

    I'm not sure yet about engine power. This is my current information:

    - P-47C: 2000 HP for 5 min, 1625 HP normal*
    - P-47D-5RE: 2300 HP for 5 min, 2000 HP for 15 min, 1625 normal
    - P-47D-15RE: 2300 HP for 5 min, 2000 HP for 15 min, 1625 normal
    - P-47D-25RE: 2535 HP for 5 min, 2000 HP for 15 min, 1625 normal
    - P-47D-30RE: 2535 HP for 5 min, 2000 HP for 15 min, 1625 normal

    * You can see that it has 2000 HP as WEP, 1625 HP as 100%. For the others, we can make it 2300/2535 HP WEP, 2000 HP normal, so the P-47C is a lame duck in comparison.

    (The first P-47D entered combat only a month later than the P-47C. It didn't have water injection intially, but it probably could run 2000 HP for 15 min.)

    Some guesswork involved everywhere :)

    Regards,

    Henning (HoHun)
     
  12. looseleaf

    looseleaf Well-Known Member

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    Re: P47 x FW190

    "....It's the Republic P-43 Lancer that saw action in low numbers with the Chinese Air Force and Chennault's Flying Tigers. ...."



    The AVG did NOT use these planes in combat. A few were being ferried and a few were being tested and even though some pilots wanted to keep them as they had better high alt performance Gen Chenault did not approve the plane and they were returned to the Chinese.


    The Australian Air Force used most of the P-43 with a certain success.


    As for using this model in FH; Oh great another flying turd for the red side.

    Do the Reds a favour and make it a Gold plane.
     
  13. HoHun

    HoHun FH Beta Tester

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    Re: P47 x FW190

    Hi Looseleaf,

    >Gen Chenault did not approve the plane and they were returned to the Chinese.

    If you follow the link I provided, you will find a well-researched article by Richard Dunn, quoting from contemporary documents that contradict your statement.

    >As for using this model in FH; Oh great another flying turd for the red side.

    It's your party, so you can cry if you want to.

    Regards,

    Henning (HoHun)
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. RolandGarros

    RolandGarros Well-Known Member

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    >If you follow the link I provided, you will find a well-researched article by Richard Dunn, quoting from contemporary documents that contradict your statement.

    that contradict's the book chennault wrote in 1949, Way of a Fighter. long story short, fuel hogs not welcome in china. great book detailing all sorts of things you never expected happening in china before & during the war
     
  15. HoHun

    HoHun FH Beta Tester

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    Hi Roland,

    >that contradict's the book chennault wrote in 1949, Way of a Fighter.

    Sounds like an interesting book, but Dunn actually describes P-43 combat missions and in the footnotes provides the wartime sources. Hard to beat that, I say. I haven't read Chennault's book, but it wouldn't be the first of the immediate post-war publications that would have to be corrected in some details due to later research.

    Regards,

    Henning (HoHun)
     
  16. alexzp

    alexzp Well-Known Member

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    Re: P47 x FW190

    How much Yak-3 turn time in your calculation?
     
  17. HoHun

    HoHun FH Beta Tester

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    Re: P47 x FW190

    Hi Alex,

    >How much Yak-3 turn time in your calculation?

    I believe I didn't calculate the Yak-3 turn time, but compared it to a figure from Freehost or real-life testing.

    (The original posts were made 2005 on beta forum, I don't remember the details.)

    Regards,

    Henning (HoHun)
     
  18. RolandGarros

    RolandGarros Well-Known Member

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    > Sounds like an interesting book, but Dunn actually describes P-43 combat
    > missions and in the footnotes provides the wartime sources. Hard to beat
    > that, I say. I haven't read Chennault's book, but it wouldn't be the first of
    > the immediate post-war publications that would have to be corrected in
    >some details due to later research.

    while i would normaly agree with you that a tertiary source is far more likely to be accurate than primary, in this case it is different.
    the information that flowed out of china was skewed by the turf battles & power struggles that were ongoing therein.
    then it was archived and now published.
    once again chinese history vexes the westerner, or maybe not.
     
  19. HoHun

    HoHun FH Beta Tester

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    Hi Roland,

    >while i would normaly agree with you that a tertiary source is far more likely to be accurate than primary, in this case it is different.

    Sounds to me as if you didn't actually try to follow the foot notes.

    But actually from an engineering retrospective point of view, it's not particularly interesting whether the type was employed or not, so believe what you want.

    Regards,

    Henning (HoHun)
     
  20. RolandGarros

    RolandGarros Well-Known Member

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    col. r. l. scott flew it over mt. everest.
    got in trouble with the nepalese over that.