Was really p38 a devil for germans?

The question is: "Was really p38 a devil for the Germans?"

The answer is YES.

I am not suggesting it was the best or superior fighter.

I am quoting that it was a very good plane and some of those aces who flew both the P38 and P51 thought the P38 was better.

Naturally, I am going to quote those who really liked the p38 and those who flew them in combat.

Every plane had it's glory days. When the p38 was in ETO, iit did the job it was made to do and it was effective.

"Fear"? I'm willing to bet NO fighter pilot had fear of an enemy plane of either side in WW2.

 

As somebody above mentioned, P38 was as effective in ETO and PTO as was Me110 over Poland and France. Facing even numbers of evenly trained enemy pilots it would share the fate of 110. As it AFAIR did in MTO when first squadrons of P38's were withdrawed after first encounters with Luftwaffe, so that special tactics and training programs for P38 could be made. So I wouldn't agree it was good plane at all. Jugs and Mustangs proved to be more versatile and effective in fighter duties.

No point in that. Every fighter pilot of every air force in the world claimed, claims and will claim that his plane is the best. Except maybe for P39 and Caudron 714 pilots .

But only thanks to strategic and tactical situation.

LOL! Yea, propably, but only until first encounter with enemy.

 

legends

there was no name translating to 'twin', 'fork', 'tail', or 'devil' used by the luftwaffe, not officially and not whispered.
at least i have never been shown any citations of it... only some hints, that groundtroops gave the plane a nickname. i guess, it's a self-made legend.

 

Re: legends

Please feel free to take a closer look at a very complete history of the P38 where you will read these two quotes:

"It is not surprising that German pilots nicknamed the P-38 Der Gabelschwanz Teufel (the Fork-Tailed Devil). "

"The perception of the P-38 as a mediocre aircraft is clearly the result of wartime propaganda run unchecked, and lay interpretations of period statements. The historical record clearly indicates that the big twin was there when it really mattered and there can be no greater a compliment for its designers. It was the aircraft which allowed the USAAF to play an offensive strategy almost from the very beginning of combat operations. The P-38 was without doubt the strategically most important American fighter of World War II."

http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38.html


From: Der Gabelschwanz Teufel, By Carlo Kopp


I think this is a very complete and informative book and will answer everything you may or may not want to know about this aircraft.

 

still

hi looseleaf,

i am by far noone to discuss technical issues. only by optics, i find the p38 interesting, but slightly obscure.

i related just to the name, which i have only mentioned in articles like you linked...
'German pilots nicknamed the P-38 Der Gabelschwanz Teufel' is what i doubt.
so far the only naming similar to this have i seen in a documentary, after war reports of artillery. and in an interview of some 70-year-old pilot (don't know much about pilot-names as well) by an american magazine.
besides some advertising nicks used by designers (like 'lurch', 'schwalbe', 'pfeil', etc) i think, it was unusual for german pilots to call planes by nicks... not their own and not others. common were numbers and alphabetics. planes are also not female. such a monstrous name like 'gabelschwanzteufel' is not even a nick, just imagine it's use in a cantine, not to talk of in flight.

imo, the nickname 'gabelschwanzteufel' was self-invented or at least highly promoted as a morale boost, maybe redirected to german troops again.

however, it's not at all about the plane (which i find a strange one, did i say already?), but my general distrust towards all stories, tales and (auto-)biographics, which contain any kind of emotion and/or entertainment. this is mainly, because i believe, that they are published by the major reason to earn money - and therefor need to contain elements, which please the targeted consumer. goes for any subject and party. except maybe pure scientific and pure fictional, hardly any publication of high prints evades the co-writer and/or editor.

as i said, i don't know, if the 'fork'-thingie was commonly used, but i have never been shown any other documentation than like your quote: 'the german (pilots) called it...'

 

It's pointless trying to explain something to a guy who learns history from comic books. Let him live in his own little world.
EOT for me.

 

A very good piece of advise. I am sorry to have invaded your little fantasy world with pages of so few pictures, so few in color and so many words not written in colored balloons.

Someday, I hope if you will grow up,they will let you into a real library.

 

Looks like FH forum created new friendship.

 

Re: still

If you refuse to look for the evidence, you will not find it.

To prove or to disprove any hypothesis your or mine.



I am trying to answer the question: was it really "a devil of a plane for the Germans". Reading that Carlo Kopp's pages and should you bother to research his list of references, I think the answer is Yes.

 

P51 is almost twice more cheaper than p38 and need 2,5x less fuel with 1,5x lesser trained pilot to do almost same work as p38 That is why americans want p51 than p38 in cover rule. They need 250 escort fighters than 100 elite multirole fighters. It is economic. It is like F15 and F16. F 15 is multirole expensive elite fighter and f16 is simply cheaper fighter, so it is better pair of f15 or three pairs of f16?

 

Here is a quote of "Pablo" from "TotalSims Forums"




Pablo

Joined: 04 Jun 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Southern Germany

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:32 am Post subject: Farewell to the "Gabelschwanzteufel" Reply with quote
Hi boyz !

First time of my life, when I heared abput the P38, was when I was in the age of around 5 years. My Pa, long gone, who was german Soldier in WWII, told me about the "afternoon circus" he witnessed a whole week in the Kassel Area in the fall of 1944.

Ervery day around 14:00 a bunch of P38 scattered over the area my Father and his Platoon was, to strafe anything the moves an bomb any valuable target.

The first day, the P38's scared the whole area to death and until darkness no one even dared to raise his helmet out of his foxhole.
Day 2 : The same the P38 horde came in the area, strafing the S**t out of evry idiot wo stumbled around or dared to drives a truck or a car.

Day 3 : Some 109 intercepted the low level marauding P38's. My Pa and all his buddies, said somthing like : Yeah, no the darn American asses wil be kicked to hell. Several minutes later, after the P38's dropped immediately bombs and external tanks, to face the 109's, the surviving 109's fled in panic, leaving some thick black smoking trails of burning 109 wrecks behind.

Day 4, a fligth of 190's intercepted the P38 bunch. My Pa and his buddies thgought : Oh' well hopefully today the darn American Asses will be kicked.
My Father told me, that he learned that day, how the 190's engine will cry in pain, whe the 190 Pilot ramm the throttle to Emergency Power to run lik hell. Several 190's were shoot down, one very nearby to my Fathers foxhole. (that's why he knew for sure it was a 190 flight)

Day 5 : a mixed flight of 109's and 190 tryed to intercept the mad gone whorde of P38's.
The hard low level dogfight that begun, lastet almost 20 Minutes. My Pa said : At last we stopped watch the airial Combat, to play Skat instead (Skat = "The"geman card game )
because it was just too frustrating to see the "Gabelschwanzteufel" shoot down one 109 and 190 after the other.

Day 6: day, the P38' had the sky for itselfs again.

Day 7 : No more P38' appeared, after there were simply no more valuable targets in the Area.

This wartime story, was the first time, when I heared about the "Gabelschwanzteufel"
(Fork tailed devil).
My Pa at last witnessed confirmed 4 crashes of german Fighters. Some more he watched running with smoke trails or otherwise damaged, made it maybe home again. The vast majority of the german Planes, just fleed.
The numbers were equal, except 5th day, when the P38's where outnumbered. The Dofights my Pa witnessed, happened in tree top altitutde up to 1500 - 2000 meters. He wasn't sure, that the P38' Flight lost even a single plane. But even after all this years, early 1970's he (a fomer german soldier ) was still darn impressed of the performance of the "Gabelschwanzteufel"

Last Time I flew my beloved P38 J in Warbirds, was in test against wokade. He flew a B25 and gave me a hard time in tight low level turns. After the P38 now bleeds all E in a few seconds, it was almost impossible for me, to get the the B25 into the gunsight for a fatal Burst, without more E at the start of the engagement. And even with E advantage at the beginning I only could follow the B25 one hard 360° turn, than the P38 truck begann to stall.
Fuel Load of my P38 was 15% at take off. The Ottos of the B25 was off (otherwise I had been death in a split second)
The Roll rate of the P38 turned from failry good, to abysmal now. The E loss in turns, is like hitting a solid wall of bricks.
Then I flew the Ki84 Ufo, even in endless 90° wingtip to ground turns with 50% throttle. I pulled back throttle until I was hard to fly tight, neverending tight turns with 38% throttle.

The P38 is dead meat in Warbirds now. Call me a whiner or somthing, but with all the Uber-Planes now Warbirds appears more and more like a Arcade to me. Last Time I played, there were lot's of 109's 190's, P51's and Yaks for a while.
I have seen some spits, almost no more F6's, for sure no more P38's, even the La Ufos, I could handle well with the "good old" P38 J were

 

http://aviationartstore.com/robin_olds_2.htm


Here you will find a quotation from Gen. Robin Olds USAF (retired). WW2 Ace, Korea and Viet Nam air combat pilot and a recap of his aerial victories.

The quotation is something like this:

" You can ask the five Luftwaffe pilots I shot down what they think of the P38! Remember the German pilots called the P38 the Fork-Tailed Devil."

 

You can feel all that love too?

Isn't this a great place to make friends?

 

Yes!

And looseleaf, you really bring arguments, we cannot disprove!

S!

 

my pa said he had great time reading this thread


edit: (you can quote me on totalsims if you like)

 

To be proved right or wrong is not really my goal.
I share the research and tell you why I come to the conclusion I have.

Everyone is free to think and/or believe what they wish.

I am hopeful that for those who can think will appreciate the the information and they will investigate further and for those who believe, that they do not take offense to what may be perceived as an attack(upon their belief structure).

 

lol, bs

Here is a quote of "Ivan" from "TotalTruth Forums"



Ivan

Joined: 30 Feb 2006
Posts: 5.2
Location: Inner Outer Mongolia

PostPosted: Sun Jun 45, 2006 4:32 am Post subject: The truth behind the Tunguska Incident Reply with quote

I will never forget the stories my grandfather told me. He was old - having served in the Great Patriotic War had worn him down over the years. Yet I don't think the war itself is what had wrinkled his face and weakened his stride. I think it had to do with something he told me when I was young.

One day, when I was resting on his knee as grandchildren are prone to do, I asked him,

"What was the war like?"

"Well child, I didn't really fight in the war," he said, "I took part in the negotiations with the tzarists."

I quickly lost interest, opting to play hoop and stick on the lawn instead.

I was not until years later that I reflected on his words. There weren't any tzarists in WWII, they had been pushed aside much earlier. Or so I thought. When grandfather died, an old chest was among the items he had willed to me. Nobody could find a key to the lock, so it was cut open. Inside were large stacks of documents, and I slowly picked through the old, brittle papers over the course of many winter nights.

I was astonished at what the documents described. They told how the Tunguska Event of 1908 was actually a thermonuclear explosion carried out by the research division of the Tzar government. The yield - 30 megatons - was so great that the Tzar Nicholas II began to feel very powerful. He ignored his advisors, and entered the Great War against the wishes of his nation. He thought he could use the nuclear bomb to maintain his grip on power if need be.

Eventually, his most trusted associate, General Poplavski (who is almost unknown to this day) betrayed Nicholas, and tried to make a bid for power. Poplavski was the man in charge of the nuclear weapons. At the same time, the revolution was already underway. It turns out that neither Poplavski nor Nicholas were competent enough to maintain their grip on power, and their fighting only weakened opposition to the revolution.

When the new Soviet government was established, Poplavski was still at large with a following of loyal military officers. The general still had control over the nuclear weapons, and the Soviet government began a large campaign to negotiate with the rogue Poplavski. The Soviet Union did not want Poplavski to launch nuclear attacks either on itself or on other countries, as the new Union was weak and did not want to make many enemies. To reduce global suspicion of the internal affairs of the Soviet Union, the KGB sent many spies to the United States to create the impression that the Soviets were seeking nuclear technology. This way, the UN would not suspect that rogue tzarist generals were holding the Soviet Union hostage with nuclear bombs.

About 30 years later, my grandfather had the idea to offer Poplavski a large tract in Siberia in exchange for cooperation. This offer, the most generous yet offered, was accepted. In celebration, the Soviets detonated one of their low-yield bombs on 29 August 1949. There still remained, however, many irate officers of Poplavski's who claimed the negotiations were invalid. The Soviet Union was unable to attain true rival status to the US until each one of those officers was reigned in. It took many years to do so, which is why the claimed Soviet stockpile did not surpass that of the US until the 1970s.

 

I have a video interview I conducted with a WWII veteran P38 recon pilot at an airshow who outran 190s.

 

Exactly!!! It is the pilot, not the plane that wins with ability and skill!!