Latewar planes available with streack only

a big WTG Vibora for that huge statement

i agree completely with your opinion
-- thx for writing down all that

but i have a weird feeling with this issue, i donґt
know why -- but sometimes it looks to me that the
Plane restriction is already resolved.

They just searching for a majority

O.K. let`s wait and see


greetings magix-

 

Hi Malino,

>The point being that there is only a small percentage of the overall pilots in Warbirds who are good enough to consistently fly multiple kill sorties, taking out multiple logons we're talking of roughly 1000 pilots of which only 5-10% are consistently ranked.

The beauty of the streak system is that you can tailor it so that you get the desired percentage of Ьberplanes. Start with a default streak rquirement of 5. Too few Ьberplanes in the arena? Drop the required streak length next tour. Too many? Increase the streak length instead.

>This IMHO would create a situation where those pilots flying these Uber planes, by the fact that they are already fairly exceptional pilots and with such a performance gap with there aircraft would make them virtually invincible.

The enemy has Ьberplanes as well, and altitude is a powerful equalizer. I don't expect any problems with that.

>With the volume of online games around and in that the newer pilots don't live and breath Warbirds like we do would lead to them getting pissed off and rather than spending weeks and weeks getting better they'd just go elsewhere.

Aces High has a score-based reward system, and it does just fine.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

Hi Heartc,

>Rewarding survival would just be one further step into the direction of a simulation and it's fully within the logic for why my suggestions at the top would never be implemented.

Thanks for the support, and for the good laugh your ironic introduction gave me!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

Hi Ledada,

>your remarks to fair gameplay in equal, basic chances, etc is quite right, but, of course, in view of the basic meaning of the game, the duels, the colors, the "battle"... the better wins, mainly depending on personal abilities.

Thanks for acknowledging that much!

>but that doesn't fit to the streak-restriction, because the streakґitself is a consequence from what you listed as "basic gameplay". and the result, of course, is, that next time, the same opponents, let's say directly after the winner has 'streaked' a better plane, the "basic chances" are biased towards the winner of the first duel.

He won from a situation of equal chances due to his better ability. The reward he got for winning has improved his sitatuation, so his chances are better than his opponent's now - but as the reason is his better ability, it's still "fair".

>so... including the old wisdom, that better skilled players are mostly better able to ride the uberplanes, what 'basic gamefun' will rise for the loser in this 'demonstration'-fight.

Remember that the arena is full with planes, most of them non-Ьberplanes, so the "loser" isn't forced to take on the winner again when he returns with his reward in the shape of a better aircraft. "Many vs. many" is the name of the game, not "duel", and more altitude often is of greater value than more horsepower anyway.

>(btw: if heartc has got 1 kill/sortie as a newbie... i havent! i remember, i did some 30 sorties before the first kill ever... )

Would you like to analyze the reasons? For me, it were:

a) No clue about the different capabilities of different aircraft.
b) Lack of appreciation of altitude differences.
c) No clue about net lag.
d) No concept of the application of energy combat.

>if these aspects need to be declared part of the 'basic gameplay', something is not working right. and if someone totally denies the meaning of scores at all, he seems to me bored of playing the game.

1) I don't deny the meaning of scores. I just observe that they have little to no impact on the behavior of the majority of players. As the relation between game and score is a one-way relationship (the game influences the score, but the score doesn't influence the game), that's inevitable.

2) You're right that something is not working right on Freehost. It's that too many people consider getting killed the normal ending for their mission. That distorts the entire game universe: Tactics that didn't work in real life work in here, and tactics that worked in the real life are useless in here. The game is moving away from a WW2 simulation game to an arbitary 1st person shooter. This process can't be blamed on the players, but it is structurally determined because the game fails to establish common game goals.

Creating a complete feedback loop - game to score to game - and rewarding success in achieving the most basic goal shared by all real WW2 pilots - survival! - will fix this.

Freehost will become a much better game server by that

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

Or ability to RTB??

Sorry to bang this drum so much, but I honestly see this as the end to the problems.

Its NOT too much to ask someone to at least rtb from a sortie. Asking someone to attain 3 kills (at least) for a better plane is somehow tipping the balance in the favour of the most experienced pilots, who will find that 3 kills in an early-war plane is a piece of cake.

Please, all we are asking is to look at some of the concerns raised in this thread and consider them before making ANY decisions so profound as this.

The people who have spoken against this are, by and large, people who are respected both in the skies AND in the Arena. Bear this in mind please.......

-glas-

 

Hi pp. vibora,

>>Most pilots wich flew 262 in RL were high scoring aces.

>Not true... at end of war to Germany, any young pilot was electable to pilot anything that can take off, even jets (Read Cloistermann...)

Mostly true. Read Ethell/Price ... JV 44 ... "The Ritterkreuz was our squadron badge". And even at the end of the war, young pilots were carefully selected for the jets - read Mutke's description (his Me 262 is at display at the Deutsches Museum in Munich).

>And whats the point? in late war all sides have powerfull planes, and this is the scenбrio equal chances to all pilots!

You have equal chances because the availability of Ьberplanes depends on your abilities only.

>Also imagine: your red (LA7, F4U4, etc): See an 262 and think (cmon... do NOT hurts!!!): its one of the best enemies pilot there... should I engage?
>Yes? You will lose your streak...
>No? Fun is gone... running chicken!

Don't ask yourself "Should I engage?" Better ask yourself: "How should I engage?" If you rush in without a thought, chances are that you'll indeed lose your streak, but if your fear for your streak lets you pause a moment to consider tactics, you might as well win. Noone is invincible, and every player and every plane has weak points you can exploit.

>Consider the lost of streak by a newbee as (as -exec- said) a rare weather condition, or bird collision, or engine malfunction due bad repairs...

Consider the loss of your streak by an expert as the same!

But the loss has to have an impact on the game so that it's felt as a loss at all - and that's by making Ьberplanes inaccessible until you've built a streak again.

>Some ppl really dont want to "learn" or built streak in some particular moment, only play, kamik to get fun

The streak is just the proof that you can survive.

"Play kamikaze to get fun" is the way to ruin the game - what good does a wingman do if his presence doesn't scare the bandits of my tail because the bandits are happily getting killed while getting a shot at me?

That's exactly why survival has to be rewarded - to make it clear to everyone that kamikazeing means losing, and that you pay a price for losing your life.

>WB its NOT a LIFE its a GAME!!! different ppl, different goals...

Since you don't really lose your life in a game, I can't see why you clinging to the best Ьberplanes available when you go out to kill yourself. You can just as conveniently kill yourself in a normal plane!

>And think twice after dive to help a smoke comrade chased by 2-3 cons as I personnaly see many times.. big streaks giving a shit about other pilots in order to "build a streak"

1) Your "many times" smoking comrades obviously lack the sense of self-preservation that will be instilled by the streak restriction rule.

2) There's nothing better for building a streak than helping people. 2 to 3 cons chasing a smoking buddy look like very juicy targets if I can dive upon them because they're most likely fixated on the smoker and won't even see me coming.

>Try this: in ONE TOD turn off scores, streaks, medals and lets see what happens... MB much more daring combats (and quakes and ack runners... and covers, and coordinates, and buffers.....) not to lose, lets play hard so!

I'd agree to try this, though it will only prove that people don't care for score. That's structurally determined - there's no feedback loop from score to game, and if you remove the feedback from game to score, it's going to change nothing.

>>What's great about kamikazes? Nothing!

>-Try to think on the other side... the challenge to fight against other just to check skills and abilities...

If your win the battle of skills and abilities, you'll even get a reward with the new system. If you lose, you'll feel that you lost so that courage finally means something.

>>No way, he was bent for the kill and not caring for his own life.

>-...his own life...

His own CHEAP life - it cost him nothing to lose, and that's wrong.

>-Warbirds is NOT a historical simulation, its only a air simulation game (and a lil unprecise btw) and is FAAAAAAAAAAR from be historical...

Which doesn't mean you can't make it MOOOOOOOORRREEE so.

>BTW,: What about test this kind of implementation at TA (and rename it as TEST ARENA) and leave MA as is, so we can easily check how many pilots REALLY care about this kind of changes...

The game designers have to lead the players, not be lead by them. Picasso didn't conduct market research for his works of art either.

>And what about a handicap system, when pilots w/ higher streaks only can fly w/ old planes, to improve the game balance?

Sure, reward losing, that's what all great games do ;-)

>Better: when someone kill other take not only theyr life... but his streak, points and medals!!!

Since the score has no impact on the game, it won't change anything.

>Most ppl (admiting or not) in a determined point fly for points or streak. period.

In that case, the streak restriction will fit them well.

>> No offense to anyone, but how does it feel to dictact how others should fly? If I want to furball, I shouldn't be penalized for that.

>Buzz, AGAIN 110% agree, and it deserves to be repeated!

Again: You're not penalized for furballing. If you're successful, you're even rewarded for furballing. What you'd be penalized for is for losing your life. That doesn't force anyone to do anything, but if you prefer to fly in a way that gets you killed consistently, you'll have to make do without access to the Ьberplanes. (And if you ask me, it shouldn't bother you as you as you can die in any plane just fine.)

>And, Jesus! its not an Air Academy, stop that stuff to get better and better, commom objectives, global goals, restrictions as way to induce determined kind of behavior!!!

The one "new" goal is SURVIVAL. That's the absolute minimum common goal we need for the game to work as a game, and it's the absolute minimum goal we need to make the simulation aspect of the game to resemble WW2. You don't have to graduate at Air Acadamy to know that you don't want to be killed.

>In a 20th Century history we sadly saw horrible things that became or started w/ such initiatives; to get someting done in a some "correct" -for the good of ppl- way "leaders" did introduce, at first, little restrictions, after that, another lil restriction, and after that...

You're just comparing me to Hitler. Watch it, ppdott!

No regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

Hello Folks,

some more words about restriction.

One of the most reasons against restriction is, that only the best pilots will have the late war planes and the others have to fly with the outdated ones.

Thats imho not really a problem. Are the F6F, Spit9 outdated planes in 1945 ?? Imho not. If you fly it right, there is no problem in killing other cons. Last tod i killed many pilots, flying in an "ьber" plane like the 190D/109K without problems, because i used the right tactics.

I have learned, that the best way to survive is, to have an higher energie status than your opponent. This is possible with nearly every plane and if you have got a wingman your chances to survive are more than doubled.

On the golden side are other very good planes like the 190A4/A8-light or the 109G2, wich will not be restricted and cappable opponents in late war.

When i fly in late war i often see "outdated" planes flown by the players with succes.
If it was true, that you cannot survive in outdated planes, why are so many "stupid" players, flying with them in late war ?

So guys, keep cool and calm down
Imho a restriction of some planes will affekt the gamplay very positive.

Cu Flubby

 

Rgreat on Tonnage thread o posted an idea, don't know if it's possible but it could really increase the cover for bombers/jabos.

 

For me to get a better feeling in WB FH is:

- 1a Remove the current host notice about kills and make the same Aces Hight did. Host show only the number of kills / plane flew only when landed. Example:
-HOST-: -odi-- landed 4 kills on FW190A4
Only the killed/willer receive an istant message like "you killed -mart-" and "you have been killed by --odi--".
This would decrease suiciders since if they like so much host messages about theyr kills they would have to land and exit from theyr plane.
- 1b It would decrease in a huge way the number of complains.

- Change the way of showing score from Kill/streack score to mission suceffully rtbed. The only factor wich would count for score is the number of sorties you did with a landing (in order to prevent eventual bad behavior like take off and rtb immediately) landing point should be scored only if there is at least one kill/ground target destroyed.

- increase in a huge way the difficulty to close an airfield, making hangars killable only by 1000kg fuels by 500kg ect.
This would finally increase the number of bomber jabos in both sides. (for cover read the Tonnage thread [last post of the thread] where i posted a possible idea on how increase the cover).

- If possible take a better controll on the users (with a sort of FH account), as it is now peaple can create 20 different nicknames.

i'm thinking on more ideas, but will need some times to translate them and put them on forum

 

Monitoring landed sorties is really hard. People can just repeat .fly and .e.

Aside from that. I'm not any authority in FH and there is no special weight in my opinions. It's up to devs what they will do or will not.

 

No Henning, I never intent to do that, even reffered to HIM anyway... My point in that matter is: lot of bad things happened (IMHO) w/ such initiatives... not only third Reich... but here at My country also and that was very painfull to us as the same to your ppl I gess... (If You understood that way sry, not intent). Thats why Im against the use of restrictive rules to induce new behaviours or new point of views even if this new behaviours or new point of views at start could seems nice... but the way (restriction rules) proved to be fail (sry bad english) as we see at:
1) ceilling of some buffs = pilots upset
2) otto modifications = pilots upset
3) Some Planes FM = pilots upset
4) Some Planes guns modifications = pilots upset
...
And , all of this modifications was done w/ a (good) intent of get better of game, but do not achieved that intents mainly itens 1 & 2 we see less and less buffs at virt skys.

And thanks to answer -some- points of my post... but now I need take time to read it and answer that. (I took almost 2 days to wrote that)
Also, do not take that as personal, neither understand as any type of comparsion between YOU and anyone... Just the way to do things is (IMHO) the prob... I mean why not test it before at TA, (or in a kind of Test TOD) same terrain, same rules but w/ this introduced..., instead trying to convince ppl this or that...?
Further answers soon.

Im trying to whatch in other way... instead penalize bad performance pilots, mb reward good w/ other things... dunno... more fuel,... less restrictions... this way you can induce ppl to make things better...

 

nice idea rgreat!
but how to prove he did buff or cover mission?

 

Hi pp. vibora,

>Thats why Im against the use of restrictive rules

Any rule is a restriction by definition. If I follow your logic, a game with the no rules would be the best. In reality, it would be pointless and couldn't even be considered a game.

>1) ceilling of some buffs = pilots upset
>2) otto modifications = pilots upset
>3) Some Planes FM = pilots upset
>4) Some Planes guns modifications = pilots upset

That's because the sequence of changes was wrong. The most important change that should have been done first is the streak restriction, everything else would just have dropped into place afterwards.

>And thanks to answer -some- points of my post...

I addressed -all- points up to the Hitler comparison.

>Im trying to whatch in other way... instead penalize bad performance pilots, mb reward good w/ other things... dunno... more fuel

Any rule is a restriction by definition. You can only reward someone by restricting someone else from getting the reward for free.

The fuel restriction you're suggesting is just the same as the aircraft restriction I'm suggesting: Only players with a streak get the reward, all others get a restriction.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

You got that straight p_v. Dont get on the slippery slope to tyranny. Winston Churchill wasn't joking when he said 'democracy is the worst form of government, except all other forms'. Eventually we will evolve past the need to have some sociopath push our buttons and take our $$$, but not anytime soon. WWII could have been that moment of change, but the allied sociopath leaders were even better than the axis ones and so the real important lesson was not learned...
...am I OT? I'll get back on: bring in the Ar234 and Ta152.
Schnellbomber and Schnellescort

(A)

 

Just what the arena needs....another goddamn gold jet! [sarcasm mode off]

It's that sort of $h!t ppl are trying to limit in the arena by proposing these ludicrous changes.

[On Topic]

All I can see happening if these changes are put in place is the current test arena will become the new main arena. Ppl can go in there and fly any plane, in any fashion, they choose.

I really don't understand the reasoning behind this proposal, even after 9 pages and 130+ replies. Do the ppl supporting this idea really want everyone to fly the same way.....all manouveurs predictable, method of attack identical (if any)? Gonna be one very boring game if you can predict with reasonable certainty what the con you are chasing is going to do.

Sorry guys, but you need to face the fact that humans are all different, which means on any given day ppl are going to fly differently. Unpredictable behaviour is human nature....it is what makes us all individuals.

If I want to dive flat out and crash into a 40mm ack to kill it, why should I have to fly an outdated plane to do it? Plans change, the last ditch effort ot kill that ack may not have been my original goal. I may have been escorting a buff in the latest and greatest uberplane and he was unable to kill that final ack due to bomb dispersion. Skies are clear, LI2 is nearby, what the heck........go in firing, crash into the damn thing if I have to so my transport buddy can cap that field. And now you say because I did a good thing to help my side win a little victory, I am gonna be penalised by losing the plane I fought so hard to get.

[sarcasm mode on]

Not gonna happen.....because that field is not worth losing my good plane. Someone is just gonna have to bring another buff and take out that ack and all the rest of the targets, 'cause they are gonna all be up again in the hour it takes for the buff to get here. No way I am gonna escort that buff either. Can't afford to 'cause the secret is out now, and that field will be crawling with cons.......not chancing my uberplane. Oh well better luck next time.
[sarcasm mode off]

Yes, this is true. But the major difference is that the fuel reward only allows the 'expert' to fly further/longer. It does not give him/her a significant increase in overall personal performance. In most cases, an updated plane has increased performance, better armament, bigger/more ammunition, which all will contribute to a bigger difference in the abilities of WBFH pilots.

I am a shit virtual pilot.....I am the first to admit that......but I neither have the time nor the inclination to learn to fly properly. If I wanted to do that I would pay the $15000 to learn to fly for real. Probably the main reason I fly mostly transport missions, and why I don't like flying the much sought after bigmed arena, which has very few ppl flying at my WB time.

For me, WBFH is an escape from the mundane existence I call life, I don't want to spend all my arena time flying up to within D5 of a con so I can identify it, only to find it is an 'expert' in a uberplane and then having to run like hell or die. And I am sure you guys really don't want to be only doing the chasing. Being chased is a bigger adrenalin rush, particularly if you are playing to stay alive.

regards, Oz

 

This is a better idea than the plane restriction....


How about more ammo for a streak ... I might even try a live if i could get 1000 rounds of 20mm in my la5fn...

 

Ok the majority is against this idea wich still an idea, really don't know where glas dreamed that me and Hohun would anyway make this idea effective.
I'm not a fanatic of realis, many post i writed are about playability and game balance, I respect the peaple who think this is a game where they are free to lame everytime, but they have to respect peaple who like organizzation, realism and to times seriousness too.
I posted some idea about buff cover (nobody replied) here i repeated for the 3th time some things that could make FH peaple feel better (and for the 3th time nobody replied).

So i can say thread is closed, but peaple who prefer "crash in targets" or kamikaze, those peaple wich accept the "realism" or the "game balance" only if it don't concerns them directly, they shouldn't post other useless reply on "realism" (example: buff otto wich was unreal and all wined "it's not realistic, too arcade") subject thread because they could be exchanges for hypocritical.

 

Exactly Odi.

If we haven't had the Full Real flight model here on FH since the beginning, but instead also Easy Mode as a choice, the great majority of the same guys would also get in a rage when talking about disabling Easy Mode ("I suck, just want to have some fun here, don't want to learn how to avoid stalls" etc).

Honestly, people who admit they suck and are actually fine with that are really in the wrong game-genre, because they lack even the most basic brain connections (no offense, just read what is written there) required to fly a fighter a/c (simulated or not). Lucky for them, this is a simulation and they just look like clowns instead of freight chickens. This is fine for me, but it becomes ridiculous when those same guys get loud because they are uncomfortable with suggestions to improve realism in this sim (read: death "hurts"). They are playing FPS in a Sim and expect to get along with it. It's like driving into opposite direction in a car race.

Yes, I understand this is a game. But so is soccer, basketball, baseball, any competition sports (including the car race). Would you also like "no rules" there, would you also be fine when you suck there? If you want to play a certain game, like this Air Combat Simulation, play it right or leave and look somewhere else in case you are not comfortable with disadvantages when you are a loser.

heartc

 

And that is the exact attitude which will be the downfall of this community.

Can't see how I am a loser because I admit that I suck in fighters. At least I admit it, which means I can only improve. My skills lie elsewhere in this game, as many ppl are well aware. What gives you the right to call me a loser and tell me to leave because I don't conform to the flying methods that you choose?

Where is it written that your way is the right way??

Those who winge about the ppl who kamikaze claim this is the wrong way, but it was a very effective method of attack used time and time again by the Japanese against the US Navy, so if it was used IRL, why not in here? Or is this now not a simulation?

Starting to get real confused 'cause it seems to be a simulation when it suits, and a game when it doesn't.

Sorry if I have gone over the top, but I get rather peeved when some arrogant prick calls me a loser because I choose to fly my way instead of bending over and taking it up the

,Oz

 

Say what ya like it is unfair to give the best pilots the best planes.....End of story....

Why can't you people see this ????


Simulation?? of what?? in WWII there was no big signs over ya head .... airfields were not unprotected just because a few acks were blowen up .... Planes did not fall apart like they do in this game .... almost all WWII aircraft had self sealing fuel tanks .... etc,etc.

Its a game... To some its a sport ....To some its a simulation...To others its a way of wasting some time untill they go to bed....The point is everybody get something diffrent out of it so why make them change the way they want to play...

Anyway this is going around in circles....its all been said....and hopefully majority rules....