Apache shoot Iraqian farmers with 30 mm

In a related story: I need to apologise to the Armed Forces of the United States of America.... Last week, three US soldiers were courtmartialed for commiting war-crimes. They kicked a captive Baath-official to death, some hours affter he was taken captive.

Once more, stuff like this happens in conflict and is the main reason for my pacifism. But I doubted the USA's willingness to persecute it's own personel when they did such things, and it now appears these doubts I had are not valid. I am happy to be wrong, this time....

Too bad such actions do little to stop the killing. Yesterday the headquarters of the KDP and PUK in Arbil were blown up by suicide-bombers. I know people there...

 

There was a documentary on the other night called "Iraq - Where the USA and Britain went Wrong".

Very good they had interviews with all the infield commanders and alot of the troops as well as the locals and even members of the intelligence community.

One thing that struck me was the attitude of the infield commanders. The two British commanders opinions were "Ok, how can we minimse the risk of civilian casualities" The Americans opinions were "It's war so civilian casualities are gonna happen".

The difference in attitude seems to be one of the main reasons as to why the British have had 23 casualities since the end of hostilities and the Americans have had 365.


Theres alot more to it and it's worth seeing the documentary but the bit above stuck in my mind the most.


Mal

 

hm.. interesting discussion

I see much more emotions here than pure thinking.... Glas, you say that the same ppl, who are bitching about this, are the same ppl who are bitching about american media etc... I would reply that the same person, who is always defending us/uk policy and war in iraq in general is now defending what has happened in the video.. Guess who I'm talking about.

Sebbo : one technical note. You have written that : "According to the Geneva Convention, spies can be executed immediately when caught." That is wrong afaik. Geneva Convention just states that it does not apply to soldiers w/o uniform. No word about executions.
___________________
I will try to simplify the problem

3 ppl killed by something, they will never realize what it was, for the reason they had some box with them; there is no evidence of anything that would identify them as enemies of US army

justification - war is war...? tell me.. what is war? what is it for wonder that it makes you to justify killing other people who possess no threath to you?

 

@ manoce: The point I was making was that it is the people who readily accept this footage as absolute truth and already have the copter crew hung, drawn and quartered for their 'crime' are usually the same people who rubbish other unconfirmed media stories.

But your right, I had conditional support for the war and I have been sticking up for the crew in that video, so there is a parallel. But my stance is not contradictory, unlike the stance of those I was talking about

-glas-

 

Strange people you are. Had anyone watched that AVI attentively? Have you ever tried to LISTEN, what is being discussed on the radio? If affirmative, anwser the following questions:

1. Why were iraqies so alert, why the chopper sound made them so nervous? (if they were afraid of an unprovoked attack, as some would say, why the hell they run and hide something ["Igla" and a gun] in the field?)

2. If the tractor driver has nothing in common with the others, what was the reason for him to abort his work and go towards the jeep? What was the sense for the jeep driver to poke into the tractor? We may suppose that the tractor driver has nothing with those two, but he is too co-operative. Of course, more wise gunner would shoot at the jeep driver first and watch the others...

3. We may pretend that the pipe is anything, but only an AA rocket may be unfolded in response to an attack...

4. An order for elimination means elimination, not leaving alive or wounded.

5. You don't like 30 mm shooting? But the other option is Hellfire rockets... Would that be better?

 

Well, if someone fires a 30mm near me, you can bet i'd get nervous too...

Maybe he ran towards the jeep because it's faster than a tractor? I would have made the same too...

But the problem is: Why they had that order? Apparently they are no more than farmers...

 

Just watch the footage before discussion, pleeeease... The only thing I see, you have no idea of what you are talking about. Take dubious pictures, enlarge them as I did (and as air-command officers do), make several image enhancement operations (contract, negative), compare the pattern to a known weapon system...

Have you done that?.. But you discuss...

 

@ Vadim: Good points, all of them. Im not arguing about the rights and wrongs of the copter crew's actions because as far as I am concerned, they were given a job to do and done it professionally and efficiently. Whether the order should have been given is another matter, although from what you have said above it seems more and more to me that they were certainly not ordinary farmers or civilians, or at least they didnt act as such.

Im not suggesting we should ignore everything that happens and accept it is all part of a war. I just feel that taking this as an isolated incident, there does not seem much wrong with the actions of the crew at all.

-glas-

 

questioning...

exactly!

and to clear it:
i don't know what happened, but what i can see for pretty sure is that some people die and some not. some people take lives and some are taken. i am not sure what happened before or after, but so far i have seen it in the video, may it been faked or not!
what i strongly hope is, that for whatever reason some kill and some die, it will be discussed. what the discussion shall be about? it is about why someone is not anymore - and for that i think, it's legitim to question the motivation of the other one, who still is.

this should always be the most important questioning. the very last argument is a general response, or a statistical, or a historical... or a tactical!
i am myself very convinced that there is very few ethically 'good' in mankind, including the individual, but questioning is the first and easiest!

 

orders and isolated incidents...

hi glas,

as i told about my opinion in the post before...
what else will you see in that video than an "isolated incident"? have you seen it yet, or have you still written 15 postings here without ever watching what is been discussed?
i ask that, because i would like to hint you at robert milgram's scientific research and experiments about obeying, orders and responsibility in the mid-fifties.

please notice, i don't post any opinion about how i would judge, and i don't really know.
i'd only like to see "isolated incidents" been discussed. furthermore, even if i imagine or understand it very much, "following orders" is in no way an excuse to get out of response.

i kindly ask to regard this posting and the ones before not as my contribution concerning the video, but to the way in which life and death are weighted in this thread!

 

No, i haven't done that. But, have you ever seen a snuff movie? Can you judge about it is good or bad? i guess you do. I consider that video as a snuff movie. I'm not in the need of seeing it and enlarge images to know it's terrible. Just the idea itself makes me sick. And yes, i'll keep discussing it as long as i feel in the need (or the mood) of it.

Btw: Sorry for late answer, but i'm now living in France, so i can't reply but from weeks to weeks

 

Very interesting discussion but all rather emotive as there is no intel leading up to the attack.

No one knows if choppers or troops had come under attack in the area before.

No one knows if the truck had been monitored delivering weapons before

We do not even know if this is in IRAQ. It could be real, It could be a doctored film.

After watching the cam several times it is obviously a clandestine meeting. They both look around and when they spot the copter (right after he leans on the pick up). The pick up driver grabs a weapon wrapped in burlap and ditches it in the field. The truck driver also ditches something in the field. As the truck driver walks back to the field he points in the direction of the copter. He thinks its okay the apache is not coming any closer and its okay to pick up the weapon. There seems to some confusion when the fire order is given. The gunner states they have weapons; the command gives authorization to fire while the pilot explains that they have dropped the weapon. After the first burst misses the pick up driver runs to the tractor to retrieve the weapon telling the farmer to move. The farmer is the proverbial innocent bystander. The pick up driver is then killed when he tries to unwrap the weapon that the farmer has picked up and placed in the tractor cab, he is not taking cover! The truck driver hides under the truck just behind the cab, he leans out and looks directly at the copter. They fire into and under the truck, blowing the engine, the front tyres and most likely the lower legs of the truck driver. As he rolls away its obvious that he is seriously injured (big white patch behind him is massive blood loss). He is most likely dead before the kill order is given. The kill order is given, he only knows that there is one wounded hostile still moving and he must assume that the hostile is still a threat.

Both the pick up driver and truck driver have access to weapons. The apache believes that they are a threat. This makes them legitimate targets. The farmer was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

Maybe legitimate targets for US-army... "If you f e e l threat, you can kill".

 

Regardless of the nationality of the soldiers, if they feel under threat they will respond. Do you seriously believe only US soldiers would have acted in this manner under these circumstances?

I dont think Peek was commenting on the rights and wrongs or politics of what happened, I think he was just commenting on what he seen as the situation in the film, regardless of who was there.

-glas-

 

SO Sturmbock, you do not consider someone carrying weaponry that can down your vehicle a legitimate target?

"If you f e e l threat, you can kill". They are in a war zone and as i previously stated, we are unaware if any copters had been attacked or brought down in that area.

The RPG would have been used eventually against coilition forces, perhaps you would have been happier with a squad of marines blown to pieces in their APC.

My 18 year old cousin in currently serving in Iraq and its one less weapon that could be fired at him

 

I understand how you feel Peek but the problem is the Iraq war was declared over months ago.

By having a shoot first policy the US are not gaining friends. Yes it's difficult to operate a only fire when fired upon and you'll take casualities which will make you unpopular at home but then by having the Policy the civilian populance is more likely to accept you and help you which in turn will reduce the chances of Terrorism.

By having a shoot first policy you're getting Civilian casualities which in the eyes of the general populance is making you unpopular because you promised them that this was a war of Liberation.

The only way you'll be able to have the people of Iraq accept you is if every episode of a civilian shooting by the military is publically brought to trial and the soldiers if found to be in the wrong publically punished.

Look at history.

Malin

 

malin

fair enough. I agree that action should have been taken with regards to the farmer but the other two knew the risks, were prepared to take those risks and paid the price for taking those risks.

 

Again though, it is speculative as to whether the farmer was an innocent bystander or parrt of the proceedings.

But we went down that road 4 pages ago, it's a well-trodden track.

-glas-

 

Comcast.net , the site this came from is the high-speed internet site of Comcast a huge American media outlet (the ones trying to buy Disney) so it is not accurate to imply that the Amercan media is trying to cover this up. Certainly the majority of American media outlets tend to be critical of the War and the current administration. Also you say you didn't see it on CNN or NBC. Do you live in the U.S.? Do you monitor all American channels 24/7 ? If so, point taken. If not, then what do you know.

It's funny to say this after 2 people were temporarily banned because people didn't "just refrain from reading" their posts. I is hard to "just not read" something especially if the title of the thread is not "Another obnoxious biles/barak flame war" or " "We still hate the U.S.A because ...."

( this is NOT a negative commentary on exec's decision regarding biles/barak. I for one support the crayon...even if he looks like a pencil on his avatar.)

 

That's a personal site of a Comcast cable-internet subscriber. Doesn't express Comcast's willingness to publish this video.

You may not know but we have the same TV channels in Brazil as you have in the US. Also, I've been in the US for the last 7 months, because of my work I go back and forth to the US rather oftenly. And last, I don't think it's *free media* when a TV channel rejects to air a commercial during the Superbowl just because it's anti-Bush. Do you?

When I said "I didn't see", I didn't want to mention all the people around here who I asked about it but that includes my friends, my girlfriend and her friends in College (they were debating in a Human Rights class about this video and no one had seen it on tv). So, yes I didn't monitor all the american TV channels but I'd think that if something like this video had been aired, you would hear about it everywhere, don't you think? Or at least someone would have seen it.

I'm not anti-american, as you can probably tell, I get along with most of you just fine and I have several dear friends in the US. I'm just against the blind-fold, fake freedom of speech and limits to access to information.

I don't have family in Iraq but I have family in Rio fighting daily the druglords and they endless arsennal. My cousin is in 12/24 hours shift for over a year and a half with no vacations. He has people firing AR-15s at him in daily basis and believe me, these druglords don't follow *any* Rules of Engagement. It's guerrilla war in broad daylight in a 13 million people city. But it was his choice as it was Peek's cousin. I respect that and just pray that nothing bad happens to him or Peek's cousin.