He wanted to say: how much inferior or superior? We may think: superior climb rate -- 14 to 12 m/s or 24 to 12 m/s... Do you see the difference?
ok...thanks vadim. I guess that I'd start by using other factors to help me determine a place to work from. Engine, wing design & area etc. I'm not trying to make it sound easy and can't offer specific answers (I know too little about the subject), but given there is so much info known there must be indicators ? Sorry flubby, you were a little too 'zen' for me. How can you translate the words "inferior", "superior" and so on in performance numbers ?? Its interesting to read, but it does not help to modify the FM of any plane imho - flubby The question is valid. The statement below it however, suggests you discount the whole of that interesting read as having no value, based on your question. Or maybe I read it wrong. Christ knows I know nothing of the intricacies of FM programming/development and I make no claims to either. But I can problem solve and when I have handful of known facts, I don't readily discard a project because of one or two unknowns. Sometimes the answer lies within the facts you have, sometimes you have to guestimate based on your facts & modify. That's the explanation of my simplistic answer to your seemingly simplistic question. I think we both know what we mean now.
The F4F-3 Wildcat had a rather short, rounded fuselage with mid-wings of rectangular shape. The wings did not fold for carrier storage. All the main parts of the airplane were located in the front part of the tubby fuselage, the fuel tank and retractable landing gear were right under the pilot. This concentration of weight made for a quick handling, maneuverable fighter. Its Pratt & Whitney 1200hp, 14-cylinder, air-cooled, twin row radial engine (R-1830-76 or 86) gave it a top speed of 330 mph. The F4F-3 had a range of 845 miles. The standard armament was four .50 caliber wing mounted machine guns. Service ceiling was 37,500 ft. The F4F-3 offered good durability, pilot armor, and a high dive speed. It also had good maneuverability, although it was soon discovered that it could not compete with the Japanese Zero in this area. A common complaint from pilots was the manual hand-cranked retracting landing gear, which required 30 cranks. One slip could result in a serious wrist injury. http://www.chuckhawks.com/f4f.htm I do not doubt that the f4f could turn- thats why it is a fighter. But I think you mistake quotes of "good handling" for "great handling" or perhaps "super extrodinary handling". The fact is- the f4f could not compete with the a6m in a turn fight- otherwise we would have large acounts from history talking of greatly skilled f4f pilots "there were a few" that dogfought lone zeros all the time- but it never happened. Like the fw190a vs spitv. The fw190 outclasses the spitfire in every which way "like the f4f vs a6m" but the spitv wins the flat turn fight obiously. But just because the one advantage is its only advantage- does this mean they cant fight? Hell yes they can fight. And latter spit x's could actually go mix it up even more. "like the fm2". Simple fact- lead rain will never have its f4f which turns like an i15 with the control response of a fw190.....Its just not logical.
allsy what the hell you mentioning lead rain? They didn't even post in this thread. they giving you a complex allsy? allsy once again know one here claimed the wildcat could out perform a zero. The F4F had certain advantages and could mix it up in a turn fight one on one for a bit you can not denie this also skill plays a part. here is paragraph from an interview with Saburo Sakai on a particular fight he had with an F4F-4 from Eye Witness to War (Firsthand Accounts of WW-II aircombat) "Q: When did your fighting over Guadalcanal begin? A: On August 7, 1942. This was the longest-ranged fighter mission we ever conducted. I saw my first American amphibious operation, hundreds of ships. Then we were jumped by the first six Grumman F4F-4 Wildcats i had ever seen. They went after the bombers, but they failed to score against them. I saw a single F4F chasing three Zeros/Zekes, which was suicide. But the American rolled away from their fire and managed to invert, roll, dive and climb into a counter attacking posture. This Wildcat pilot was scoring hits on every plane, and he finally caught the tail of one Zero. I came down 1,500 ft to help (This is 4 Zeros now versus 1 F4F-4 so you understand allsy), then the American snap-rolled, turned into me and forced me to roll away. On the fifth spiral and inverted roll i thought i had him, but he turned away and rolled under me. I rolled over and cut power, forcing him to overshoot. He pulled an immelmann and ended up on my tail! Then he tried to flee, perhaps low on fuel or out of ammunition. I cut inside his turn and fired into his cockpit, then i made a mistake and overshot, but nothing happened and i knew he wasout of ammunition. I slid my canopy back, and we stared at each other. he was an older man, which explained his skill. His plane had lost much of its skin, and the rudder was a skeleton. I could see that he was wounded in the chest. Q: Did you finish him off? A: Killing him like that, wounded and unable to defend himself, would have been dishonorable. I fired into the engine, which caught fire, and he got out of the plane. The parachute opened, and he drifted into the beach. [ sakai's opponent, Lieutenant James J. Sutherland II of the carrier Saratoga's fighter squadron VF-5, survived ] " I think that explains how an F4F can be handled. first against 3 Zero/Zekes and then a 64 kill ace Saburo Sakai to make it 4 the F4F pilot Lt, Sutherland was engaging. he gave Saburo Sakai a hard dog-fight. Another thing is the early F4F-3's were a little more nimble then the F4F-4's because they had only 4 .50 caliber guns as oppossed to 6 of the F4F-4's also the F4F-4s hadfolding wings which added a little more slight weight again, and many F4F-3 pilots disliked this because it reduced the F4F-4's handling and reduced total firing time, although the 6 .50's if hit produced much more damage. The FM-2 wildcat went back to the 4 machine guns that the F4F-3's used and had a higher horse powered engine 1,350 hp as oppossed to the earlier marks 1,200 hp. cc, but again know one here said the wildcat will outturn or out perform (overall) over the A6M Zero, but the FM-2 Closely caompares to the A6M-5 in the comparison, and i would dog-fight to a point with those Aircraft or earlier versions too. on your web page allsy it has good information, but there are many sources to choose from http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=F4F+comparisons&btnG=Google+Search from your page, we must keep this in mind too. "Although later Allied fighters had superior kill-to-loss ratios, people seem to forget that the F4F Wildcat, along with its Army counterpart the P-40 Warhawk, were fighting in the days when the Japanese had superior numbers and the best trained pilots in the world. It was the Wildcats and Warhawks that bore the brunt of Japanese air power in the early days of the Pacific War. And it was these same planes that defeated the Japanese in the crucial battles of Midway and Guadalcanal that became the turning points of the war in the Pacific. Their pilots fought against the odds to win some incredible victories. " bullet
Many of japans best pilots were killed in transport aircraft. What you dont understand is that there was more to air to air combat that just the flat performance of the plane. There is the skill of the pilot- the individual aircraft, and most of all, the pilots own physical limits. only one of the three is modled into WBFH. The skill of the pilot. Of course in REAL a2a combat the wildcat could sometimes mix it up, but is this suprising when the a6m wasnt receiving as much maitenance and the fact that pilot for pilot the one who can sustain the g's and force is the winer in a turn fight. Thats why stick jerking anoys me- no real pilot could do that without blacking out or surcoming to g's. In WBFH- the wildcat has good roll- it rarely if ever catches fuel fires, it dives faster, and has pritty damn good handling charictaristics. But you want more. AS WBFH admins say- the performance modled here is RELITIVE, and relitive it is. Lead rain bothers me because I know your tight with them and I know american cv planes are among their favorites...why throw a plane a bone it doenst deserve?
kanga- I have to believe that you were drunk when you replyed. I CONFIRMED that the known assets of the f4f are infact truely modled into WBFH......leave it to an aussie....except helrza...and ozemale....well, i guess that just leaves you.
i ain't a fiter to be sensitive for performance. i am an strafer being sensitive for loads. as for digits appeared somewhere deep in the chat, i'm too old and not enthusiastic to dig'em outta for fm developers. if one really needs to fix performance, he should bring digits up into easy to understand form of fix request: "irl condistions and digits = xx, fh same conditions give digits = yy. fix fm to produce xx in named conditions". easy to understand for quite busy developers.
lol allsy I aint in tight with these fellows (lead rain) as you think. Only one i know is thug, and he has pretty much been around every squadron and when he flies on the gold side which he does, i shoot to kill the same as other constant goldies as yourself. It really is a stretch to mention a squadron that still hasn't posted a single thing in this thread. you must wake up in cold sweats at night dreaming about thug on your six. He is a good skilled pilot on either side and you aint to shabby yourself, but to say the F4F, F6F and many other aircraft are just fine is just a copout. When you well know you bitch moan and scream about your plane the Zero, 190, 109 to be fixed. I know from personal accounts the Zero eats the F4F every time in the hands of regular pilots let alone some one who is well established in flight sims and WBFH. Your Zero could probably stand to turn better even still (did you just read that?) but on the same token the Zeke should compress more easily and break up when hit much less than German aircraft. Your Zero dives with a SpitIX and stays with it for a long long time ( which is a farse). This I find unreal, but i'm dealing with it now that i know how they have it modelled and it turns pretty damn good at even all out speed better than any allied aircraft except the I-153, but then again the Ki-27 is there to combat that. exec, no one asked you to dig numbers out, just want the developers and who ever matters on the subject to give it a read. I don't write this stuff myself. This info was taken from a ligitimate source. But clearly from the responses this should be taken literally. Surely if someone asked you to test the temperature of your bath water you would know if it is extremely hot, hot, warm, room temperature, cool, cold, very cold, or ice, or if some one gives a strong, regular, or weak hand shake? These examples clearly would give you a good indication how to fix or adjust or be prepared to handle the next time around and if a friend or someone you have known for a good long time tells you be careful the water is hot a little cold water is need to make it just right you would listen or atleast test it and come to the same conclusion or very nearly the same? I need to get some sleep. See ya tomorrow. <S>
fuck off, strafe. i don't owe you and not obliged to read your whinning. if you don't want to give data in the format that proved to be effective for developers reaction, you can try any other format (that is ineffective as i know well), and stay ignored by developers. no matter the universal truth and formula of the god is here, the information hardly would be noticed, unless it is in the form i propose (not demand for myself).
I'm sorry u got nervous.... So, some pilots wants to help develop the game, I know u want more datailed datas, but those ones posted before show some ideas what could be fixed. BTW where aree the datas used to programming Bf110, Me410, I153, Pe2, Pe8, P39's, ....
So... about breakfast. I think i will skip today's. I was stupid enough to eat it before going to bed so a] i dont have anything to eat now, b] i dont feel at ease. Anyway it was buckwheat mash with fried onion. Delicious food. I always eat to much of it. There was some book where it was written which food is good for which bloodtypes. I think it was bullshit because there was written that buckwheat is no-no for my type. Oh yes, breakfasts..
Country Fried steak you say? Or as a famous dutch man once told me "Flap jack and a smoke? Waffle and a ciggar? Bong and a blitz?"
i find some mention in Saburo Sakai's book, that US navy pilots were more experienced than US army pilots and he has a lot of problems to kill one of them near Quadalcanal, more problems than kill any army pilot in cobra or warhawk. I search some datas, but there are a lot of differences between more datas of one aircraft, I can't search many serious datas, and i think that developers aren't very happy when someone gives them "his" data. There are a lot of topics about aircraft performance and only a few of them were successful. Breakfast? What is it?
