Hmmm, interesting.... The only thread about the US and Iraq on this forum that DOESN'T explode into flame-wars is only visited by people from AFVS! Back On Topic: @ Achtung: I DO think Blair is a good influence on Bush. And while I disagree with plans for a war, I do think that Blair hasn't got much of a choice. Don't forget: We're the NATO and are supposed to stand together. I am also against the german/french/belgian refusal to help turkey in case of war. The war itself may be wrong but if the shit hits the fan, Turkey is up shit-creek without a peddle. We signed a contract that kept us safe for years, now it is time to live up to our promises. That goes for France, Belgium and Germany as well.
yeah i know what u say bas, but what french/gremans say is that they'll act when needed. IMHO they do great cause USA asked turkey to ask for the 4th pint of the NATO treat and call for the others (a dirty way to drag them to support USA), and they just say that when turkey is under danger they will help. And IMHO the nato after the cold war should disspear and a european comomn defence institution should be buold now without USA, cause NATO nowadays is only used to mantains americans in our lands in the nato bases. it's my opinion! I dislike how rummstein is talking about this stuff and how the USA is trying to separate the europeans. As i said they are playing agame as kids that is making lots of damage for years, they are burning the european process (which we talked so many times) and so.
NATO is a defese organization. AFAIK it should be invocated only when attacked, not the case in Turkey. It's much similar to the Rio Treat, a mutual defense Americas treat, Argentina invocated it when UK sent it's fleet to retake Falklands, don't need to say noone stand on their side do I ?
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! Wait a minute, Fla! The USA is going to attack Iraq, NOT the NATO. Because Turkey is with the NATO, Iraq might strike out at Turkey. That's quite a difference from what happened at the Falklands where Argentina attacked Britain and then appealed for help as the UK struck back. Turkey isn't attacking Iraq, the USA is! I feel there IS a threat to Turkey. And even if it is caused by the USA (through Iraq), the NATO countries are obligated to support turkey.
North Atlantic Treaty (Nato) Article 4 The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..hmm maybe my book´s are wrong but would make Artikel 5 >Beistandsverpflichtung< more sense ? Article 5 The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. ..but guess Turkey is yet not attackt by Iraq.
first sorry i cant write english well, Maybe there is a good online translator anywhere BASIC LAW for the Federal Republic of Germany (Promulgated by the Parliamentary Council on 23 May 1949) Article 26 (Ban on preparing a war of aggression) (1) Activities tending and undertaken with the intent to disturb peaceful relations between nations, especially to prepare for aggressive war, are unconstitutional. They shall be made a punishable offense. Article 87a (Establishment and powers of the Armed Forces) (2) Apart from Defense, the Armed Forces may only be used insofar as explicitly permitted by this Basic Law. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Charta 1945< der UN >Juni WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom, AND FOR THESE ENDS to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples, HAVE RESOLVED TO COMBINE OUR EFFORTS TO ACCOMPLISH THESE AIMS Chapter 1 1. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace; 2.To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace; Chapter VI Artikel 33 1. The parties to any dispute, the continuance of which is likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace and security, shall, first of all, seek a solution by negotiation, enquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements, or other peaceful means of their own choice. ....and also in the Artikel 1 of the Nato Treaty.. The North Atlantic Treaty Washington D.C. - 4 April 1949 Article 1 The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charta of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ok ,so how i understand that, if the Members of this Treatys are agree or undertake(?) to keep Freedom and peace, is preparing of an agressive war by the USA and Co. hard on the Limit if not already breach of this Contract, and in the case Iraq will be conquered anyway to see as such, cuz the Iraq is not a danger right now for us, and just to prevent that the Iraq could be a danger for anyone in the future a war will be the wrong way,( should we bomb the USA also ,cuz it could be in the future a danger for anyone ..like right now for the Iraq?) It is much to early at all to think about a war, we must use all sorts of peacfull means and have to search for alternatives and to find other solutions.. and when i take a look at the UN Charta , The Northatlantik Treaty ..and the Human rights, i think we should not only do this , we are obliged to do it due to Contract´s and at least to healthy Human Understanding. I have no doubt that Saddam would sacrificin his Soldiers and a war would mean many thousand victims including Childs and Women´s, and that for a thing that never the Methods from USA and Co. justifies, would that be in my eyes a disregard of the Human rights Is that what happend the prepare of a agressive attack of the Iraq(no dout it is), under the point of view that nothing is really proved, is a Participation of Germany not possible And if u take a look at Artikel 1 and 33 of the UN charta is a Attack on the Iraq not allowed anyway ..... at least thats how i would understand this. oh .. my dam english
yeah sorry .. not good to post in German ,but if i would write that all in English , u would understand not much more than ok , so , or bye is ther anyone who could translate that in English ?
Are you sure you are neutral when you give logistical and bases suport ? IMO no. Supose Iraq want to make an counter ofensive to stop US bombings,where would them attack (not that they can really do so)? Turkey and Kuwait. But that would disrespect their 'neutrality', but is that neutrality if the attacks are coming from there ? This would be simply non-sense to me. Anyone know what international laws say about it ?
Fuck it. War is gonna happen sooner or later. We are all grown up, and we all know that there is no such thing as a end to violence. World War 1, World War 2.... 3 will happen. Imagine war is avoided now, but 30 years from now, it happens. Imagine what new weapons man would have come up with by then to destroy his fellow man. Marx, that communist bastard, was probably correct when he said a major war will break out every 30-40 years. We may be due. To all of you, keep your heads down, because the shit is gonna hit the fan sooner or later.
why Lobo? why u think that someone will ever use mass destruction weapons? actually i think that if someone is able to use Nukes in 30-40 years is USA. if i'm afraid of Nukes, it's because of USA who used them without any punishment, i'm not afraid of sadam hussein for more than CNN says it. That mother fucker is not my nightmare! Bush is! yesterday i saw in the satellite the FOX channel, and i must say that the amounts of shit that they can put on a screen is jsut amazing!!! and don't forget that when u say "Fuck it! war is gonna happen soon or alter" u are talking about the lives of lots of innocent ppl. In US land ppl is not used to wars, in europe we are, that's why we think twice before going to support a war, cause we know what it means. If the war had to be in North Caroline or in Utah, we would see if the americans would support it as well PS: never forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki, never again f****.....
Speaking about nukes: The US government has determined that in case of an USA attack on Iraq, use of low-yield earth penetrating nuclear warheads is permitted. These weapons are supposed to penetrate some 200 feet into the ground before detonating, thus containing all fall-out. Yeah, right! Check this: http://www.fas.org/faspir/2001/v54n1/weapons.htm Apparently these weapons only penetrate up to some 20 feet before detonating. This causes massive clouds of fall-out to form.
with a bit of luck in 30 years we will have laser wepons which can take out the person they are aimed at. Instead we have wepons that kill thousands of innocent people ... Imo we shoud wait the 30 years. I agree ww3 will happen but why hurry it along????
.. saw just on TV .. Police said there are ca. 500.000 people in Berlin right now demonstrate vs the War. How many are on the Street´s on other places´n town`s ?
WOW man i just got home.... shit, we were almost 2 million ppl there in madrid !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yeahm, the media's will say it was less than 1 million LOL they are so ridiculous tryng to lie us... mates, was incredible, took us 3.5 hours to walk something like 1 km!!!!! It was not allowed to fly they media hellicopters (so they can't show the amazing amount of ppl) but just see the pics.... incredible it's been the biggest movilization in Spain another 1'5 Million in barcelona i just saw the images from london and OH SHIT! how many?? 1'5 million too? i'd say 2!!! and not to talk about rome!!! berlin!! paris........ well i've been watching CNN and FOX news and that didn't said a word,. i ask to the US members to tellme what they say about 15F in the states pls i just want to know what they say about 10 millon ppl in the world asking for peace, cause i'm afraid that they are gonna silence it i hope i'm wrong!! i had no pics of me and my ppl, and the banner we made was cool! give a chance to peace bb! (achtun is still excited!! can't sleep!!)
it's only a 20% of the ppl, as i said, we had censorers and helicopters could not fly (well not medias one, the police ones were there all the time) so, count them and make it x5 can u find me there? MADRID rools!
