Disgusting behavior...shame

Hi Zembla,

Well.. if it is a hoax, it is a very well done hoax... on google you'll find more than 1.000 sites that show this letter.

http://www.google.com.br/search?hl=pt&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=vietnam+robert+bowman+letter+president&lr=

 

>>> a bible for you to read.
full of my personal theories. take your time to discuss with me!

*

USA is center of capitalism.
capitalism is source of mass misery, social differences, greed, etc.
thats why people hate USA.

thats why people burn USA flags during anti-globalization protests. globalization is one of capitalist tendencies.

*

pride is one of the worst human behaviors. at least most times.
in this forum, for example. if a discussion starts, pride sometimes doesnt let someone accept he is wrong. and that makes discussions, flames, fights, enemies.

pride includes nationalist pride. aka patriotism.

i was at school one day, and sat down on a staircase during recess.
this staircase faced towards a patio. at the end of the patio is a stage.

i was there, resting, enjoying my free time.
minutes later, a bunch of kids formed lines towards the stage.
after a while the brazilian national anthem started playing.

when the anthem finished, a man went on the stage with a microphone. i couldnt understand a thing he said due to the terrible acoustics of the patio. but i noticed he was pointing to me.
naaaah, must have been my impression. i had nothing to do with what was going on.

i get distracted in my thoughts, and all of a sudden i notice the man was walking towards me fast steps. after i took a better look, i noticed he was all mad, with his red face, yelling at me, while pointing his finger.

my butthole shrinked, astonished, wondering what have i done?!
as he got close enough i could hear his (loud) words:
"YOU!!"

i stand up frightened, and ask: "me?"

"YEAH YOU!!! GET OUT OF HERE!! NOW!!!"

"huh?!?! but why? what have i done?"

"HOW CAN YOU BE SO DISRESPECTFUL!! I CALLED YOUR ATTENTION, BUT YOU JUST CONTINUED TO SIT DOWN DURING THE ANTHEM! GET OUT! GET OUT!!!!!!"

at this moment, kinda shaking, other sober professors came to me, and asked me to leave (politely) to avoid any problems.

why the hell am i saying this?
well.. would you expulse someone out of a patio because of such a symbolic act?

how can a maintenance employee of my school, a very religious, kind, gentle man i knew for years, rudely force me out of where i stood??????
just because i didnt stand up during the national anthem? of a country in which i wasnt born in?

if im sitting at home, watching TV and the anthem starts playing, i continue sitting down. even when its my own country.
(if im with friends watching TV, i stand to avoid this type of discussion.)

pride!!!!
pride is what makes us stand up for a combination of sounds while you watch a piece of cloth.
pride that makes you think its something absurd not to sit down while you are at it.
pride that makes you think im a problematic guy because of these acts.
i dont have pride. actually yes, i do. but not up to this point.

i thank my life for making me change countries when i was 9. this IMHO let me not have strong and/or blind patriotism.
i still have a bit. i see brazil be world champions i feel good. i watch a match of the harlem globe trotters and feel good.
but thats about it.

i thank my life for letting me live without problems among anti-americanism.

and americanism.

something i always wondered:
that guy who expulsed me from the patio is extremly religious. he even has a band that plays gospel music at churches, etc.
how could he have behaved like that if his religion - catholic - states: one of capital sins is pride.
patriotism is pride.

or am i wrong?

oh, and going even more back to the topic:
revenge... IMHO revenge is near pride.

in the most stupid relations, pride (revenge) can make you not like someone.
for instance, a stranger accidentally steps on your foot.
if you let revenge take over you, you'll make a mad face and say something rude. in this case, the stranger will say sorry, thinking something like "shees!", or "well deserved, rude guy.", and he wont want to meet you again. (maybe he wouldnt even say sorry at all tho)
if instead you just scream "ouch!!", and tell the stranger that it was nothing, he will *really* be sorry.

what if this stranger worked at the same place as you do? you would live with his bad humor every day.
leaving pride/revenge aside on your every day is important to become a more welcome man. even in stupid situtions like the one above, up to more serious situations like a country's foreign politics.

but, since pride/revenge is a so much human feeling, it requires work, patience and concentration to overcome. i personally fight against it in my real life. every day.
one day i will be a nice guy. at least i try.

will you?

thanks for this space, FH. i just needed to explode.
this is all IMHO. well, maybe not anymore. i change my mind all the time. do you have an opposite view? let me know why. we are here to talk. (dont let your pride force us into a foolish arguement )

hmmm... too big to re-read. good luck!

 

I think that letter said it very well. Shows both sides of the coin; the american wanting revenge and the american being reasonable, plus the mistakes US has made and why.

Kari, you did not insult me in any way. (if it's me you're talkin about)

About pride (and replying to illo), when I said 'proud revenge' i meant it in a bad way. I meant it like it was out of pride that they wanted revenge. Just like nicaee's example of stepping in someones toe (excellent post, btw. Thank you!). Pride is usually a very bad thing (there's good pride, too), and, sadly, there's plenty of that here. But there are also a lot of reasonable, open minded people that try to learn things better.

For History class we had to read a book called 'The Ugly American.' Although it is out of print, I strongly recommend reading it. It talks about the US attitude in the southasian countries.

Thanks all for your posts... and please try to keep an open mind. But a wise man said it best:

Only fools discuss politics and religion. After all, no one will cede to the other's point of view.

Greetings,

Luis

PS. Love and Hate are very strong words. Think twice about using them and be wise.

 

there is a chance i personally could cede.
but i dont discuss politics because its BORING!

 

@Nicaee, here in spain almost anybody stands up when watching TV and the national anthem sounds, maybe when we are in a competition we show respect to all the national anthems played by shuting up, that's all. Here in my country, everybody wearing our National flag in his car, in a t-shirt, or wherever, is seen as a fascist, and that makes that even when I am proud f being spanish I've never thought of wearing my flag in a t-shirt in the streets, and I have a t-shirt with brazil's flag, another one with mexico's flag, Morocco's flag.... (flag=banner) But never the spanish one. In my country, there was a fascist regime during 40 years, (btw supported by the U.S.A.). That regime tortured, killed and imprisoned all those who thought different than what they did, and they were really "spanish proud". As a reaction, when freedom came, the "spanish feelings" have to be hidden or eliminated, or people may think you would like the old regime to come back... Sad, isn't it?

@Boar

You're american? I have nothing against american people, but I have against your government. Is that clear?

Ok then. You wanna talk about history? Why is Israel an estate? because U.S. and United Kingdom decided to give the land to the jews after WWII and Hitler. A war were U.S. didn't took part until they were attacked, they couldn't have cared less about European people dying, but after Pearl Harbour... it was different (Meanwhile lots of people from other countries were fighting for freedom, as U.K. that stood alone against Hitler, or Russia, who lost 25 million people during the war, How many americans died? they didn't even reached half a million..... 1 million of spanish people had died fighting Fascism..... and we were less than 30 million.... ) More history in the letter some posts before, even if it's a false letter... what it says is true.... And about Israel.... I will never support a killer that decides to blow himself and kill israel people, so I won't support Palestinians, but I think that fighting kids with rocks using tanks and soldiers isn't fair. And that Israel is using way too much force to fight, only making the problem worse... but no way, you can't blame Israel for anti-american feelings, they are making their mistakes (helped by U.S.) but U.S. has done quite a lot of it's own mistakes for decades...

You wanna talk about revenge? a fair revenge? Bin Laden was from Arabia Saudi, a country "allied" with U.S., he was trained by the C.I.A. to fight the russians.... why did you attack Afganistan? you couldn't have cared less for the people dying there to the Taliban's religious terror.... and we should not forget that it was U.S. who armed and trained the Talibans to fight Russia.... Why then didn't you attacked Langley to destroy the F*****G C.I.A. who trained and armed the one who attacked you? what had the people of afganistan done to the U.S.????

Oh, and I have seen lot of americans attacking the "arabs" or "Towelheads" (is it written like that?). Afganistan people aren't arab, they are Pashtun and other ethnic groups, arabs come from arabia, and arabia now is called... Arabia Saudi, an allied of U.S.... sad when your country can't even see the difference between friend and foe...

Towelheads?? Afganistan people doesn't even wear towels in their heads, and Iraq's people does neither uses them (your 2 big enemies...) but people from arabia saudi that with their petrol are supporting your economy... they wear those towels....

Wanna know something? when Spain was the world's greatest empire (5 centuries ago), it was attacked all around the world by everybody, when Rome was the biggest Empire everybody wanted to see it's fall, when England... (bah!! England has never been an Empire ) Get the idea? now is the U.S. turn, how many time will you stand against your enemies? Rome did it for quite a long time, and Spain too....

 

In short terms my thoughts about the previous posts (you really don't want me to quote those huge ones, do you ? )

@rafael:
Great letter, actualy I didn't read it before. No need to add anything. It's said there.

@nicaee:
Impressive how we think simlary. About the whole anthem thing. I think I rarelly stood up to my (our ?) national anthem, it must have happened only a couple of times when I was at Maracana (world bigest stadium, with 120.000 other people) to watch Brasil's national soccer team play . I didn't sing it even when I had to go pass the whole military service selection.
It's not that I'm not patriotic or anything. It's a beautiful anthem, I love it. I love myy country very much. But it's a symbol. It doesn't really mean nothing. I prefer a thousand times to make a consious vote in the next election and really work for my country than just stand up for an anthem. BTW, I really haven't seen many people doing it when it plays. There are times a few stand up, but the right hand on the chest and sing it loudly. Sometimes even only a few (even only me) don't do so. So what ? I have the right to do it. It's a free country after all, you believe in what you want. Just don't disrespect anyone. And what you did wasn't a disrespect. It would be if you shouted during it or did "UUHHH.." to it. You're just on your own after all. I would make a complaim about it, or at least would have acted diferently (wouldn't have moved) when it occured.

 

@-fla--: im with you.

@spaceb: hey, i agree 100% about what u post about politics.

@nicae: well said, im with you too.

@Perdomo: Very nice words.

May no one cede to the other's point of view, may someone be right in his point of view or may be both wrong.

But when i look at this discution i wont show neither read others point of view. When i look to politic i dont want to see who is right and who is not. I want to see WHAT is right and whats not.

Actual USA politic is obviously wrong (good for them and their "friends" only), its a capitalist crime, thats all already said and who dont see it is blind ("the worst blind is the one who dont want to see").

BTW i have nothing against USA or/and anyother people.
I dont generalize and my main objective in life is to stay well with everyone. But of course there are always some exceptions like everything in life.

 

I Could Not Disagree More!! If we are not to
discuss politics, then who will? Mr. Bush and
all the leaders in every country? How could
anything chance by that way?

Judging by some of the posts here, it seems that
I have been very little irritated by US politics
I like lots of things about US, and I have been happy
about some things it's government has done
during the past decades too. I am still waiting, what
good Mr. Bush may do. I have still some hope left.

If US government is aiming selfishly towards her
own good, what is really wrong with that? It is
a natural thing for a country and for her regime to do.
When eg. Spain was in her glory, how much did she
care about human rights among natives in the Latin America?
Anyway, there was plenty of gold there just waiting
for someone to collect it.

If US government is doing something and telling
the people something else, that is not the first
time in history eighter. Hell... I don't even trust
the Finnish government

What I dislike most, is when someone says like:
'My coutry did so much to help the poor europeans,
both with blood and money, please shut up and
accept our charity.' When the truth is at least
more complicated, if not totally different

 

Ohhh!! I am very sorry! I forgot!
I'm one stupid hot-head! Pls accept my Apologies.

If I ever want to nag about US actions in
WW2, it is totally a late-war/post-war issue.

I am greatful From Here To Eternity to all
US people for the early war support given
to Finland in 39-40 when she was in grave danger.


I mean the Brewster.

 

Actually getting brewster was REALLY REALLY hard job. USA didn't want to sell planes (or any other military equipment) because of winterwar (they referred on law which prohibited them from selling this equipment if purchasing nation was in war ). They took money while winterwar was going, but didn't give the planes. So in little peacetime 1940 was the only change. After hard wrestle they agreed to send US unarmed(IIRC) Brewster prototypes and pre- production planes(B-239), However in 1941-45 they had no trouble selling loads of equipment to Soviets.

Realistically speaking finland had no friends during winter war. Swedes didn't want to sell us weapons, USA didnt want to sell us weapons and Germany blocked all purchaces coming from Italy.

Well..this is really out of topic.

 

@Kari, I totally agree with you, every country looks for it's own interests, but we do it in different ways. For example, you talk about human rights and the spanish way to treat south american people. I have something to say about it. All around the world the people talks about how rude and "bloodthirsty" were the spaniards in South America, that we killed lot's of people...etc. Have you ever been to South America? I've been there, I won't say Spain was kind with the south american people, we surely killed a lot of them, but we mostly "fucked" with them, it's our spirit... that's not a joke, spanish people is a mixture of lots of ethnic groups (Celts, Iberos, Romans, Cartaginese, Greek, Visigodos, Arabs.....) and when we came to South America we had no problem in "making firends" among the natives. The result? If you've ever been to south america you can see there are a lot of "pure" natives left (millions) and a lot of people that comes from a mixture of European and South american or African.

But English, French, Dutch people always speak about how many natives we killed.... And in North America??? where the English, French, Dutch, German, Belgium.... people came, there are no natives left. Only Portugal in Brazil acted like Spain, of course Portugal and Spain killed people, but we didn't comited genocide, we were not trying to "delete" whole Ethnic groups from the face of earth, and the rest of Europe (and after them the recently born U.S.A.) tried to kill ALL the natives (and then imprisoned them..) And...how many European-North American Native people do you see when you go to the U.S.A.?? no one (I've been there too) The Rest of Europe saw as a personal dishonour, a shame, to fuck with a native...

Once said that... every country that tries to make the rest of the world think like them, sucks, and Spain did it for nearly 5 centuries, so we sucked a lot (but we learned the lesson).

I nearly forgot to say that I neither trust my government, we can talk about politics, but we are not one of them, I think one must be a very ill person to want to rule a country (give me more power!!)

 

True, but maybe not the whole truth.
At least some Brewsters made it to Finland
during the Winter War, in late Feb 40. They were
assembled in Sweden, so they were shipped from
US clearly during the war.

US did not want to sell them, but sold them anyway.
And what did they sell?!! The most
succesfull fighter plane in the whole WW2!
(I dont really care if it was a pure accident)


Finland had more friends among the people than
among the governments. Let us also remember the Foreign
Volunteers in the Winter War.

 

==>Perdomo

What are you actually trying to prove? Or trying to justify? That a nation that's thristy for power, resources or just grounds will exploit the conquered territories? We've seen it with the soviet union, the united states, latin america... there's no way justifying it, and there's no point in saying that it was worse in North America because they just exterminated all Indians there... equally harsh situations and ideas existed in South America... I mean, I learnt all this stuff in history classes this year, and you guys did an awful job, so did the English, French, Dutch, Mexicans and god knows what in the US... it's all the same sond, maybe someone did something worse than another, but in the end it's all a crime... it's like answering a yes or no question by trying to snoop under with some excuse...

Again, what are you trying to prove? Your country has commited these crimes, Belgium has commited crimes in Congo, England and France in the United States, Algeria, Hong Kong, India you name it... but that's all partof the past, and people that come from these nations don't necessarily represent the ex-policy of previous governments from that country...

greetze, Zembla

 

I do like this one, WTG Perdomo.

I just finished "EL AMOR EN LOS TIEMPOS DEL KOLERA"
It is a fine book indeed and it kind of confirms some of
your thoughts.

Dig deep enough, and you will find dirt in every
country's history.

 

@Kari
"Dig deep enough, and you will find dirt in every
country's history." I totally agree with you, that was what I was trying to say.

@Zembla

I'm not trying to prove nothing, nor justify. I've attacked my own country in that post (I said we sucked a lot). In fact, what I was trying to say is that in Europe there's a tendency to say that all the crimes in America were made by Spain, and I was trying to remind you that WE ALL DID IT. Is it clear now? I'm not trying to justify, accept or forgive anything. OK? But anyway, I think it's worse killing a whole ethnic group for the mere pleasure of killing them (as northern european people did in North America) than killing some of them to make them work (and of course that's just another crime, but I've seen in the news that a guy raped a girl and used a knife on her eyes, destoying her eyes to avoid being recognized by her, blinding her for the rest of her life. That's worse than a mere rape, don't you think? and I'm not justifying a rape or accepting a rape, but there are different grades of human cruelty). Now I will quote you:

"but that's all partof the past, and people that come from these nations don't necessarily represent the ex-policy of previous governments from that country..."
Yes, I don't represent my country's policy concerning South-America 5 centuries ago.... but, we are to blame for living the way we live. Or can you deny that "thanks" to the attrocities our counties did, we live like we do? all of Europe is in a wealth position, and that has been made "thanks" to centuries of murder, rape, torture, stealing... all over the rest of the world, and we should be ashamed of it. If your father killed 1, 2 or maybe 1000 people to steal their money and houses and at his death you became a millionaire... would you say "ok I won't give those people back their money because that's a part of the past and I'm not responsible for my father's actions"???? I don't think that's a good way of acting. I think Europe and U.S.A. have the responsability for centuries of murders and stealing, and we owe the world a lot, shame on us.

Btw, do you remember Belgium soldiers acting in Somalia with the U.N. troops that had to be withdrawn to Europe because they were torturing and raping kids, women, man... that they were supposed to protect? they were sent there to avoid mass killing and I can remember the TV images of four Belgium soldiers taking a 15 year old boy by his legs and arms and placing him upon a fire, laughing at his pain when he was being burnt alive (of course they had raped him before....).... What the fuck has changed??????

 

Yes, it's good to remeber history and leaders of our governments really seem not to.

How selfish one can be if it begs nuclear-suicase bomb in one of its capital cities?

If these goverments would think about themselves with sanity they wouldnt terrorize smaller. These smaller will get desperate and do some acts with big consequenses....we have seen that and will see that again.

Remember indians who died in spanish mines didn't have biological weapos/nukes to blow up madrid.

Friendly politics is key to save many US citizen (or anyone elses) lives. And people will do the voting. By agression and war one gets only enemies and insecurity.

History of western people (europeans and american) have shown we never were very good in making friends.

Just imho.

 

all of Europe is in a wealth position, and that has been made "thanks" to centuries of murder, rape, torture, stealing... all over the rest of the world, and we should be ashamed of it. If your father killed 1, 2 or maybe 1000 people to steal their money and houses and at his death you became a millionaire... would you say "ok I won't give those people back their money because that's a part of the past and I'm not responsible for my father's actions"???? I don't think that's a good way of acting. I think Europe and U.S.A. have the responsability for centuries of murders and stealing, and we owe the world a lot, shame on us.

Yes, exactly what i think.

It hasnt stopped today... we live on work made by desperate and poor people in 3th world countries. They are cheapest producers so we can have lower production costs. We get the money, they do the work. Lets say worker gets cup of rice from 50 pieces of snickers made. Here I go to the shop and and buy ones at 50?uros....where does that money go. To our companies...to our economy.

Other peoples suffering is what this western wellfare today is based on.
Imagine if these countries quit producing for us. West would collapse...prices would go up and through the roof. (Finnish worker doesnt work 12 hours for cup of rice).

 

Kari: You are right about discussing politics. I thought about that when posting the quote, but posted it anyway. I meant it to say that it's not good to try to convince the others of your point of view, yet it's good to find the pros and cons of every government.

Illo: I agree with your post. USA must make peace instead of war to survive. Otherwise it will collapse like the many empires Perdomo listed.

The best way to fight capitalism is move to a poor country You'll always be welcome in Mexico (or Somalia). Feel free to come!

Perdomo: I'm Mexican. I've always thought that USA is more advanced than Latin American countries because the Europeans just took over the place, killing most indians and rampaging everything, and thus setting their own ways and technology. The spanish and portuguese conquered (in evil ways, nonetheless) but, yes, fucked with the indians and made new races. They rather enslaved the indians than kill them all (allowing them to keep their customs and stuff). And so the Spanish rulers controlled all of Mexico until its independence, after many heads were cut off and put in public places.

I think perdomo made a great example about how everyone wanted the big empires to fall when they were at their peaks. The same is happening now. And will happen next when the next superpower comes in (Mexico? lol, keep dreamin

 

"will happen next when the next superpower comes in (Mexico? lol, keep dreamin"

Tonga will be the next superpower