OT: George Bush and Iraq

Well at least you are going to war for a reason, all be it the wrong one. We Aussies are sending our friends & loved ones because our Prime Minister has his head so far up G.W's a*$# it looks like G.W. has 4 legs. At least the poms had enough sense to negotiate cheap oil as part of their support, little Johnny is doing it for the brownie points.

Regards, Oz

 

They already tried a similar plan to this back in the late '80s, and it started what became known as the gulf war. Many ppl overlook the reason, and only see the fact Iraq invaded Kuwait. Kuwait was using american developed technology on oil wells to drill sideways under the border with Iraq, to get oil from Iraqs oil fields.

Now, I am not defending Saddam Husseins methods, but he was only trying to get back what was his in the first place. If they weren't going to pay for it, they weren't going to have it....which was the reason for burning the wells.

This new push by G.W. is for two reasons:
1. To get back the control of Iraqs oil america enjoyed in the past.

2. To finish what daddy failed to achieve, get rid of Saddam.

Regards, Oz

 

Heartc, it's nice to know that someone else out there has seen the light.

 

Unfortunately, you're right illo. The world has no morals anymore. No one is clean. Where are we going as a race if deciding right from wrong is something mature people can not do?

 

Kipling quote

Borrow trouble for yourself, if that's your nature, but don't lend it to your neighbors.
Rudyard Kipling

 

heartc, just a question, a bit off topic, but you brought it up:

How many UN resolutions did Israel ignored ? How many about leaving occupied countrys ?

How many did US ignored ? They are about to ignore on more, as they will probably attack without UN's ok.

 

can you remind me(a good link will do) why the campaign in the gulf didn't end with removing saddam and his supporters from power.
at that time i was very young and mostly, not understanding much around me(those were the days...).

 

He didn't finish the job because the UN told him to stop, unfortunately or fortunately (whichever way you look at it), daddy took heed if UN warnings. I don't think G.W. will do the same.

Regards, Oz

 

The reason why they didnt continue wasnt so much that the UN told them to stop, as the fact that it was not in any of the UN resolutions for Iraq to be attacked. The point of the Gulf War as far as the UN was concerned was to liberate Kuwait.

I found an excellent website that has interviews with the main players in the conflict, including Powell, Cheney, Thatcher and even the Iraqi foreign minister guy Aziz, whose persepctive on events is well worth a read (whether you believe him or not). I will post the link later.

-glas-

 

Found it quicker than i thought i would. The link is:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/

-glas-

 

Sorry - that was NOT the reason.

The reason why the USA and their auxiliary stopped and didnt deposed Saddam is very easy.

First have a look at the region:

Iraq has been built by the allies after WW1. Its an artificial product - like Kuwait or other nations in Africa where the borders were drawn straightly and people were mixed or seperated into these new countries.

In Iraq you have 3 ethnical and religious groups.
Kurds, Shiites and Sunnites.

Two neighbors of Iraq are not arab or semitic nations. In the north there is the Turkish Republic, where people of the turkish race live.

In the east there is Iran where the majority of the people are from the aryan race.

Both countries - Iran and Turkey have a long history of war and hate against arabs (and otherwise its the same) and are considered as natural enemies.

Now the religious part:
After the Persian Empire of the Sassanid dynasty has been conquered in the 7th century by the islamic arab hordes the iranians managed to avoid being assimiliated by the arabs (like happened in Egypt or Syria). They didnt accepted arab as language - and even went so far to modify the religion of the conquerers. They put in elements of their old iranian religion into the new islam.
(If you see a mullah of Iran and one of a arab nation you will see a great difference in their clothes. The iranian mullah has the same type of clothes which the old high priests of the pre-islamic iranian religion weared.)

By doing so they created the Shiite Islam.

Only in Iran and Iraq the Shiites are in the majority. On iraqui territory are the most holy cities of shiite islam. Also the old capital city of the persian sassanid dynasty - Ktesiphon - lies on iraqui territory.

Back to the main question:
So - when Bush sr. kicked Saddam out of Kuwait he couldnt depose him.
Because if he would have done it, the next government of Iraq would be a shiite iraqui one.
A government which would cooperate very closely with the mullahs in Teheran, because they are their highest religious authorities. All highranking iraqui mullahs are in exile in Teheran today and have great influence to the shiite iraquis who are the majority of the iraqui people.

Also Bush sr. couldnt give the iraqui kurds more rights. Because the NATO-partner Turkey would get great problems if the Kurds in N-Iraq would and could establish a base for the turkish kurds in SE Turkey.

So the decision was easy: To allow mad Saddam to remain as a weak ruler instead of endanger the fragile balance of the major powers in the persian Gulf.

And this is also the problem of today.

We all know that this war against the terror is only stupid propaganda.

Bush jr has to make lightshow in order to distract his people from his catastrophic economic policy.

(If the USA really wants to fight terror they should drop some bombs on this war criminal Sharon and his military mob which is acting like the SS did in the occupied territories decades before.)

The main problem is the question: "What will come after Iraq has been conquered and Saddam eliminated?"

I have no doubt that the USA and their ausxiliary troops will win the war in short time.

But then they will have the same chaos like in Afghanistan today.

Just have a look of Afghanistan today - and ignore the stupid propaganda about how the women in afghanistan has now new rights or so. They dont have. They still have to wear the Burka, still are treated bad and there is no democracy or something like that.

In the Afghanistan of today nothing has changed - nothing has become better. Just some cities are occupied by foreign troops and some puppets like Karsai have been installed.

But if Karsai would like to travel through "his" land without US protection he wouldnt survive the first 25 kilometers of the trip.
Its like during the USSR-occupation and their puppet Najibulla (who has been executed after the soviet protection forces left Afghanistan).

Some cities are secured - the rest is chaos, where warlords and clans are fighting each other. Even the Taliban are still in power in the southeast of Afghanistan.

In the West the puppet of Iran, "General" Hekmatiar has occupied and is controling the large province of Herat and the city.
In the northeast the war criminal "General" Dostum is ruling and he is strongly supported by the CIA.
Here the next Frankenstein made by USA is in production.

Dostum is very like Saddam, Osama Bin Laden or all the other CIA-monsters which have been created in the past.

Remember? In the 80ties Saddam was the good guy. Fighting against the bad ajatollahs of Iran. Today the USA is blaming Saddam for his chemical warfare against iraqui kurds (everyone has seen the propaganda photos of the destroyed city of Halabja). But they dont mention that many parts to produce these chemical weapons were sent from the USA (and dozends of other so called civilized countries).

Also remember Osama ? He was once a great hero who was trained by the US-CIA and then fought very succesful against the bad bad soviet occupation force in Afghanistan. The soviets called him a terrorist - and they were right !
This freedom fighter by US definition was nothing else than a brutal terrorist. A terrorist who learned how to be an effective terrorist by the USA.
And then the Frankenstein monster called Osama turned against the USA.
Now the USA also calls him a terrorist...

Then Iran:
In the 50ties there was a unbloody revolution in Iran. The Prime Minister - a highly respected and intelligent man - deposed the Shah and sent him to italian exile. He wanted to change Iran into a democracy. But because he made the mistake to revoke the oil-treaties the USA came into action.

The so called motherland and protector of democracy and its CIA deposed the Prime Minister and reinstalled the despotic Shah.
In order to avoid that a second revolution could happen, the CIA and the Mossad helped to build an iranian secret police called SAVAK which was very much like the GeStaPo.

In the following decades tenthousands of iranian just dissappeared. Prisons like the Evin in Teheran became pure horror for the people, because prisoners were tortured to death there. The country was ruled by the terror of the Shah and his SAVAK - all with the help of the USA.
And it was very good for the US economy. The Shah gave many oil-treatie sto the USA and ordered horrendrous amounts of weapons from the USA. Iran had more than 250 F4 Phantom, hundreds of F5 Tiger and also got 78 F14 Tomcats. The army - the marine - all weapon branches had top (and expensive) US-military parts.

Then - because the USA was ruled by a weak president called Carter, who considered Khomeini a second Ghandi who shouldnt be stopped - the whole situation went out of control and the bloody revolution of 1979 happened.

Because Iran seemed to be a weak target the Iraq under Saddam tried an invasion against Iran and so stabilized Khomeini.
After the Shah was deposed there were many groups within Iran fighting for power. But when the had the face the fact that the (what many iranian define) subhuman semite arabs were trying to conquer Iran they accepted Khomeini as supreme leader and started to fight together against the iraqui invader.

So soon the iranians kicked the arabs out of their territory and in order to avoid that Iran could win the war Iraq was supported by a strange coalition with the political enemies USSR and USA (but also dozen of other nations - like France, Germany, UK, China, N-Korea).
On the other hand Iraq wasnt allowed to win the war - so it only got enough weapons to hold the line against the iranian offensive units.

After 8 years and millions of casualties the war ended. And Iraq was financially ruined.

Back to topic.

I think that the USA will attack Iraq. They will use as propaganda reason their "War against terror"-stupidy.

And after Iraq has been conquered nothing will become better for the iraquis. They will have civilian losses (called collateral damage) and will have to face political chaos like we see in Afghanistan today.

 

Babek, my respect for you has just soared into un-explored heights.



VERRRRRRRY good!!!!

 

Are you serious? Ruling party in israel is more close to NSDAP than anything liberal.

 

Don't read this

babek-

Man oh man.

Everything you wanted to know about modern MachiavellianIZM but were afraid to ask.

Harsh and brutal truths contained in your essay, man. You don't pull any punches.
My fine young son is being spoon-fed in high school right now and I get very worried and strive to de-program him. It is a hard job and is so cool to occasionally stumble apon a gem like your essay.

I will print it out and put it on the fridge. My room mate, the guy sharing this place with me, will ask, "What the fuck is this crap, Brad?" And I will mumble an answer. He will ask again, and I will mumble. All the time thinking, to myself, "You stupid bubble headed beach-ball. You spoon-fed moron. You illiterate dolt. You television watching CNN mental-fellatio receiving goof: Why don't you shut up and fucking just read it!"

You know, I am so sick of being called Antisemite and Anti-American and Anarchist by people who DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THOSE THREE WORDS MEAN. Nice to know I ain't crazy nor alone.

Cheers babek:
Yours is being fridge magnetized right at this moment.

 

No doubts from my side about that whatsoever. As I already said in another posting, US hoped Saddam has learned a lesson and it would be better for stability in the region to leave him in power, but obviously this didn't work out.

He already gave them more rights. That's why the northern no-fly zone is enforced. Kurds in Northern Iraq are pretty autonom and doing well (I guess they get lots of subventions from the west).

The problem of today is that Saddam doesn't fully comply with UN resolution 1441.

Really? Do the isreali troops pull palestinian men out of the housings and shoot them right away? Do israeli troops collect palestinian children and women and drag them into concentration camps to gass them? Do isreali troops set houses on fire just for grin? With that statement you clearly show what kind of people you've joined. Coming up with those SS/Israeli Army comparisons is NOT a statement against israeli policy, but it's a TYPICAL anti-semitic, revisionist statement. You do the same we did to you, so chill out and stop reminding us on our acts. Heil Hitler!

Well, I did see those happy people with my very own eyes. Developing democracy takes some time though. That's natural for a country that had been ruled by dumb fundamentalists for decades. But I see, you'd rather like to have those fundamentalist in power down there, as long as you can spit on the US then. And how can free media in the west be only propaganda? You have the freedom to go down to Afghanistan anytime, check it out for yourself. Pretty weak propaganda if one can do so. So, what papers do you read? "Volksanzeiger"?

That's called world politics. What was your friend some time ago, can now be your enemy. Sure you would do much better if you were in charge in the US during the cold war. Somehow I bet we would all speak russian by now if you were. Or mb nuked.

Well, ok, if you make up your own reality everytime like that, ignoring the actual situation in Afghanistan before and now after the war, I'm pretty sure you'll also see political chaos in Iraq, no matter if that's a fact or not. Just like the israeli army is the SS.

Horrido Kamerad!

heartc

 

Ah, I've just seen you join babeks party. Keep on fighting the american-zionist capitalism world-conspiracy!

heartc

 

@ BABEK

So the rumours ARE true.

You ARE God.

Babek my respect for you is now at all-high levels, and i now view you as a personal idol.

AFI <3 Babek

that's goin on my fridge too.

mike afi m
www.swindleband.cjb.net

 

Damn, that's a twisted definition of the word "obviously".... Explain please?

AHEM! The kurds are currently in a state of dissaray thanks to the Americans. The Americans gave the Kurds limited self-control and then pulled out... "Bye bye dudes, the Turks get pissed off if we help you. Good luck!"

Right now, there is a war raging in Northern Iraq. This pleases the Turks, as it keeps the PKK busy.

Why? Because 12 EMPTY missile-heads were found?

Yes, and I've got photographs to boot.

I doubt they use gas. But bullets, grenades and the likes are just as deadly.

No, they blow up houses to win elections. Which is worse?

I myself am VERY pro-Israel. Comes with living in Holland I guess... But I must admit, the Israeli's have gone to far as of lately. If they don't look out, soon they WILL be the next nazi's.

And where do you come from? Must not be Europe, or you wouldn't have used "Heil Hitler" in such a way. I feel sorry for you and people like you.

I didn't, but I've seen enough in the news

The USA have done a lot of good things as well. But can't you see that there is NO reason to go for Saddam Hussein? Jesus, it'll only end in tears, misery and pain.

What if YOU have to go there, in the army? What if YOU die for nothing? What if Saddam Hussein gets killed, 100.000's die and oops: no sign of WMD's?

That's a filthy remark, man. Very weak!

Perhaps if he were in chage of the US back then, there would never have BEEN a cold war!

What the FUCK do you know about opression, man? You live in a world of Pizza-Hut and Mc-Fucking-Donalds.

The Israeli army HAS broken the Geneva convention on numerous occasions. I agree, it's not fair to compare them to the SS though....

Man, you've got some SERIOUS issues. Why all the Nazi-terms?

 

You really believe this ? So tell me please why the USA is accusing the Iraq that in northern Iraq - exactly the territory you are describing - many Al´Qaida terroists have found a place to hide.

Either this place is not under US- but under Saddam control (and then the kurds wouldnt be so happy) or the kurds who are soooo thankful for the USA (who has betrayed them after the 2nd Gulf War so Saddams hordes could massacre them before the no-fly zones were established) are cooperating with the Al ´Qaida.

Third option: There are no Al´Qadi in the northern Iraq - but then the US-accusation against Iraq would be wrong - but that cant be...

Then about the kurds. You don´t have one single kurd group there. There are many splinter groups - hating each other and fighting for different factions.

In Gulf War 1 the iranian kurds fighted for Iraq against the iraquian kurds who fought for Iran.

And the No-fly autonomous zone is no protection zone.

In the last years turkish troops have made cleaning operations in iraqui territory to hunt down "terrorists" which were kurds.

I dont deny this fact. But I dont agree with the propaganda that Saddam is a danger for the world. Even all its neighbors dont consider him as a threat.

So why fearing a weak leader of a battered state while North Korea with a similiar mad leader and nuclear weapons and missile technology is going more mad day by day.
That is a nation I fear.

Heil Dich zuerst selber!

Its makes absolutely no difference how innocent people are killed or tortured or abused - the fact that the actual israeli government behaves in their criminal way makes the IDF-soldiers operating in palestine territory for me absolutely similiar as the criminals of other parts of our history - including the soldiers of the Nazi-empire.

My main source is the BBC in internet - but surely its a communistic and antiamerican newspaper

There you could see pictures how your nice IDF-soldiers were pulling out a palestinian from a car, checking him for weapons and after his hands were tied on on his back and he lied on the ground they shot him in his head.

Thats a picture I compared with others - older one - I have seen where soldiers shot civilians from behind in their head.

But surely this man was terrorist who was rady to act - so it was self defense of the IDF-killers

And its nice that you have been in Afghanistan. Where have you been ? Kabul ? Quandahar ? Herat ?

Face the fact that because of the decades long war between the (first called freedom fighters then terrristic) mujaheddin and the soviet troops and later between the warlords and clans the land had come down to a level where only one law is acknowledged. The fundamentalistic Islam which was teached them in their small family structured communities.

Try to translate Taliban - and you will know why they all are still in Afghanistan and having a big influence in the society and for a long time they will continue to have this influence.

Afghanistan was ruined by the superpowers - that is the sad fact.
And for generations they will have no chance to get out of their chaos.

I dont wish this fate for anybody - even not for my enemy.

And although I surely dont have any sympathy for the iraqui government I dont want this US-attack, because the victims will be the prople of Iraq. First those who have to die as collateral damages in all of these ultra-precise surgical strikes.
And then the much more who have to die after the great victory against the terror.

Now thats ultracool, heartc.

You accuse me to have sympathy with Nazis but when I pointed out that also the USA has delivered parts for chemical warfare to Iraq and that Iraq used these chemical weapons against civilians and gased them to death this is only "called politics."

A very easy way to ignore the shameful fact that also the USA is guilty for the killing of civilans by gas. Like all of the other nations who delivered a monster like Saddam these weapons.

Maybe - who knows ? Its hard to check it out today

What is so bad in speaking russian? I am today able to speak five languages - and maybe one day I will also learn russian. I consider it as an advantage to be able to communicate with as many people from as different cultures as possible.

One final statement about propaganda.
Do you remember the nice looking kuwaiti girl who was presented by US -television shortly after the occupation of Kuwait by Iraq?

She told us (while whining) the story how she worked in a baby station in a hospital in Kuwait-city when the Iraqui-SS-monster-soldiers entered the area and killed all the babies by smashing them against the wall of the room.

All were shocked about this story and were happy that this nice girl managed to escape to the USA.

After the war it was reveiled that this girl was nobody else than the daughter of the kuwaiti ambassador in the USA, studiing in the USA and she hasnt been in Kuwait for years.

Sorry that I consider recent emotional reports from the so called free press as manipulated news.

It is for me unacceptable that war is a legitime political instrument.

But maybe (or surely) you have another point of view.