So.., who are US fighting in Iraq against?

This war is about BUSH SR. mistakes and BUSH JR. lies. or one word comes to mind. Iraq= Vietnam

 

no, it's about oil.

get it right.

 

Actually is both... Bush sucks big time.
And I've been chatting with many American and they think that the war is a great idea and bitch at me when I mention the "oil reason".
That scares me the most... I mean people that supports such acts imo are worse than the president itself.

 

Oil AND arms.

 

I see it is connected, but I asked about opposition they face there, not the reasons why they are there. That is, I guess, clear-- at least to ppl in this forum .

 

Let's try to look at it from their stance, I think they are trying to protect the Iraqi civilians, in the meanwhile establish a democracy (influenced by them - so in large we can speak about colonisation), could be they are in it for the resources of Iraq as well, it's 100% sure Bush is in it because his daddy couldn't finish of what he wanted to, and finally they might wanna get some sort of a pro-American regime as a foothold in the Middle East. One way or another, they are failing to do any of these things. Initially they started the war under the cover of throwing over the dictatorial regime of Saddam Hussein and installing a democracy, so, you could guess the Sjiites would be happy (Sjiites were always suppressed by Saddam who is a Soenite), nop, wrong. Sjiites are so divided and are almost terrorised by the ones that think in terms of holy crusades against the west, a bit to the likes of Usama, only they don't need to hijack planes to cause pain to the US. The US expected the sides suppressed by Saddam to take their side, to help them along in the struggle for democracy, right now it seems they made the wrong bet, as the extremists take on anyone supporting the US as well (and probably take them on even harder than they do with the Americans).

Ah well, I can be wrong, but to me it seems like the US is kind of hated by 90% of the population, this would be because of peer pressure, extremists, and the indirect threat of the extremists linked to the American presence. I mean, would you like to say no to a man with a gun pointed at your head? The extremists indirectly point a gun at the supporters of democracy.

<Z>

 

The problem is simple...

a modern-time might (USA) tries to influence pre-modern-time country (Iraq) against the will of post-modern Europe...

Differences in thinking (and in methods- USA->war; Europe->negotiations) are the result of differences in stages of social development...

 

Huh?

I understand the first idea, but the 2nd one is bullshit.

Kids in the US aren't raised to be killing machines or murderers who enjoy going to war, that's completely wrong. And I'm sure that kids in Europe aren't taught that either. So thus the "differences in stages of social development" statement is dumb and biased. Sorry frog, that's just a cop-out answer.

 

@afi

Kids in America have nothing to do with this... shape of society and dominant values shared in it do have... who joined US in war with Iraq???

Traditionally catholic countries... Spain, Italy and Poland... and English with their dominant Church of England... traditional values being very widely spread in all 4.
Dominant model of thinking + developed, profit oriented economy= modern society.

Who opposed?
France (traditionally secular and multicultural)
Germany (newly secular and even more multicultural).
Multicultural society + range of different values + developed, ecologically oriented economy= postmodern society

 

The majority of that is religious or economy oriented, not social. And also those are very very big assumptions to be made. Yes you can try to classify these things, but don't say they are social differences. Look at the average american and look at the average frenchman or german or englishman, there are a lot of similarities despite all of the differences in their country.

I think we're just arguing over terms, not the reality of it

 

Errr, hate to burst your bubble but UK is pretty much Multi Cultural.

Also in England and Spain you're forgetting that the majority of the people didn't want the war but the goverment went ahead with it anyway. The reasons IMHO are in part due to having economies pretty much linked into America's and in the case of UK I honestly don't think the US gave our goverment any choice.

As to the problems now and prior I believe that the Americans being overly trigger happy dosn't exactly help win the support of the local people.

Take the current crisis the British troops in Basra went out in riot gear and negiogated with the crowds, the US troops went out with guns and fought the crowds.

Quote:

Former Foreign Secretary Robin Cook said a heavy-handed approach by US President George W Bush handed terrorists a propaganda gift.

On Saturday, former Foreign Secretary Douglas Hurd also criticised American tactics and said the violence showed Iraqi people were starting to turn against "an occupying army".

Last week, Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said the "lid had come off the pressure cooker" in the country.

"You really don't win hearts and minds by filling hospitals and mortuaries" Lord Douglas Hurd, Former UK Foreign Secretary.

Malin

 

uh, malino:
well actually I think there's something about what frog's said; mb not so B&W tho
UK, US, Spain etc. are or at least used to be quite traditionalistical countries (whatever it means -- mb conservative is better word) - strong position of church being more expression of it than cause, or mb both. Anyway as society changes, its opinions changes too - in Spain and UK were huge demonstrations, right? This is the liberal effect or what you call multiculturality, secularity or whatever. To me it seems just starting thinking about traditions - not following them like sheeps. The politics tho, is not flexible. That means that politics need to be kicked into ass by ppl(or by some other revolution-like thing) to change their ways. In another words - tho ppl in UK are not so thick-skulled idiots as they used to be (oh sorry, but I will argue about this with anyone until one of us would fall ), old standards of thinking are not yet quite dead in society ... beind discharged ie in politics.

 

The UK and eroupe are very old countrys (1000's of years ) so they have learned that war is the last resort...Where as America is a new country (100's of years ) and like all young things they refuse to learn from others mistakes...now we all pay for there wrongs...

 

I dont see everyone complaining when they accept their handouts....

-glas-

 

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=113797

Noone invited them.

 

Well said...

 

Nah - that's not it. Tho not completely. How old is Russia?

 

Oh.. so true ; anyway, useless to try to convince those cryptofascists to start thinking, but indeed such effort is noble. Altough - giving Chechnya and Russian army as example and then discussing this.. was not the smartest move imho.

Ah.. that sentence with "payback" -- jesus.. payback for what? Nevermind, forget this.

 

The HTC boards are the last place I would look to for understanding, never mind an objective viewpoint.

Do we really need to go through another Yank bashing thread tho?

To the subject:

It would appear the uprising in some parts wasnt expected, so chances are they dont have a clue who they are fighting.

My hope is that when the time comes, they leave completely and then provide whatever support is needed to give them the necessary infrastructure.

With attacks rising, and memories of Vietnam still fresh in USA minds, I dont doubt they will be out of there as soon as they can.

-glas-