So.., who are US fighting in Iraq against?

BABEK!

While you are here - tell me what is the correct spelling of the iranian name faiershot (or something like that )?

 

laugh from heart

 

Slightly OT:

Osama Bin Laden has proposed peace with Europe, IF they withdraw their troops from Iraq and other muslim countries.

The funny thing is: here in NL, 29 % of the people think this is a good idea.

 

OT also:

Can anyone please provide the link again that showed the gas used to kill the Kurds in the Iran-Iraq war actually came from the Iranians, and not the Iraqis (as everyone claimed).

Someone posted it some time ago and I need it again. There's too many threads, with too many posts, on this subject. Searching the forums would take days.

@ Bas: Do you think 29% is too many or too little? I have to admit, when I read that story in the papers this morning, my heart lifted slightly. Yes, we should never bow to or deal with terrorists. But it gave me some hope that perhaps they do have a heart. It also perhaps shows a glint of weakness on their side.

-glas-

 

Warzone pics.

Edit: Nah...i better remove these pics...

 

That 29% has read their history books, know about the Nizarim (AKA Hashishim) & want to join them?
The other 70% support military occupation of the mideast as a way of securing a reliable supply of quality hashish?
Yes i can see how this issue could divide a nation, you could say the same for the USA if you substitued petrol for hash (my coke for gin, etc)

 

wow, i was missing such an interesting post....

i'm gonna disagree my dear friend Bas in something....

Osama Bin Ladhen thinks that the troops from europe should come back... Me too... i'm not terrorist (not a known one!), i don't think i must disagree all the things that a terrorist say just because he's a mother fucker asshole and me not (not a known one!)

I mean, if that...... mother fucker says the sky is blue, i can say it too, and if he wants the troops back, as Spain wanted, voted for this, and was done, we are not friends-of-terrorists or something. If he's gonna make peace just because we think the same thing.... what's the matter? He's crazy, we're not! Don't we want peace? We don't negotiate with terrorists... for sure! But if we make something BY OUR OWN (not pressed by anyone-ANYONE) that makes those mad-mother-fuckers calm down... much better for the world!

Is what i always speak about not giving reassons to the people of the other countries hate us... Te war on terror (CNN copyright) has not only to be an armored war, has to be a politic and social war as well! Don't we want peace? Do we? Let's use all weapons... but... i just wonder... DO WE really want peace in the world? Does Bush want peace in the world? Is so sad that i have to wonder that about a democratic leader!!! Anyway, let's talk about yo, dear reader.. do you want peace in the world? Are u ready to use all kind of weapons against the terror? Then let's use the money we use to build guns to build schools, industry, markets, economy and democracy in those poor countries. Let's give them the chances we've got.

Now... peace in the world is not that good looking huh? Much better and easier we bomb them and let time go by....

this is our world....

It's very fun that now in Spain there's people telling about the bad things that are gonna happen because of the comming back of the troops. They say that it's gonna be bad for our accounts, for the economy. It makes me laught. USA promised looooots of good things for spain before the Azores island signature. Jeff Bush came to Madrid and said that looooots of good thing would happen to spain, in economy and so. Well, we are still waiting, by the moment we suffered a heavy attack in Madrid, our companies have nothing to do in Iraq, our soldiers can't go out to the street in Dwaniya and the country that more terrorists willing to hit Spain has arrested is FRANCE!

Thx Aznar for supporting the war!!! The Spanish people was not so idiot when went to the streets and said NO TO WAR!

In the same way... let's be fair and realistic... it's very difficult to make terrorists acts in USA, but not in Madrid, Turky or Europe.... why we have to recieve the punchs for others faults? It's not very solidary i know... but it's quite tiring to be in the front line while other countries enjoy making wars and building terrorists to scare their population and emerge as the only ones that can solve the problem they created.

Someone can disagree that in Iraq were not terrorists before the war? And look now, it's plenty of them!

And the last thing: We retired the troops from iraq... it makes me soo happy... not only for the families of the soldiers in iraq, but for the brave decision that Zapatero took. We are not nuts... we know we are not save now from terrorists actions... because we don't retire the troops for the terrorists attacks in Madrid. The war was a mistake and we began solving that mistake. Another train can blow, those people is mad, but at least we made something for a better world, more fair, more politic, more managed for the UN... a world that someday will be in peace cause noone is gonna hate noone. We showed the way to all those people against the war in UK, Italy, Poland, USA, Germany, etc.... The democracy has to be stronger than our leaders, stronger than the terrorists, the citiziens must talk loud again:

NO TO WAR!

We are not in time to stop it, but we can solve the problems that our politicians generated.

 

Very nice post Achtun Nice to see you around mate!

Anyone who calls your country cowards for what you have done are talking through a hole in their arse. Your leader made a decision based on the will of the people. Real democracy

-glas-

 

Hi mate!!! U know, maybe they don't call us, but i know lot of people think so...

 

the spanish = a lot smarter than us.

Achtun, voy a vivir en madrid en.... tres anos Cuando empiezo a asistir mi universidad, hay programmas para ir a otros paises

 

Here in my university u will enjoy the chats about politics! For sure u'll have fun Actually basman was here in the university and enjoyed a lot!

 

oleeeee tus webos achtunnnnnnnnnnnn

 

Twas my 'Congratulations Iraq' post that prompted this thread I believe. I have been following this thread in silent contemplation because I tend to learn with open mind more readily if I am not in heated emotion. Well, I am very calm today ...
Admittedly this has all unfolded quite differently than I had surmised.
My greatest fault was in misjudging the Iraqi populace response. I, and I think most Americans thought that the Iraqi people would be celebrating thier 'freedom' from horrible opression. We made the mistake of asumimg Iraqis would respond as WE would have. If the US Goverment ever treats it populace with an iron hand that drags men from thier families in the night to be tortured...etc., you can be CERTAIN a bloody uprising to overthrow the government would ensue. And it would succeed! At great cost in life, but I truely believe we Ami's cherish our freedoms with great love and passion and would die to keep them for our children. Yes it may not seem so by looking at our voter turn-out numbers, but look at our choices . That said, we would assume all men of all nations would welcome freedom from such oppression.
I fear the Iraqis have been beaten down so long they have not the strength nor wisdom to accept such a deliverance. I see a nation of 'lambs' that have not the will to defy the few 'wolves' among them that are prolonging the death and suffering until a new Iraqi government can look to itself.
I fear that come the inevitable US pullout, the religious factions will be so focused on killing each other they will never see the new chance they have to reach out and grasp a better future for thier children. Its right in front of them, and all the death and suffering to this point and forward need not be in vain if they would just grasp it!
But I am thinking as a free man, born to a free man, born to an Arab immigrant that COULD see the hope! My Lebanese grandfather saw the HOPE of democracy and ACTED. Thereby am I come to see things through a generally optimistic view. Great men of courage and hope before me have earned this for me. I am gratefull.
Regardless of the reasons, or failures of US policy in attacking Iraq in the first place. They have a moment in history, right now...the door is open. I fear now that they will not, and sadly are incapable of, grasping this chance to make a better future for thier sons. Very sad affair. Thier religious intolerance will not allow them to
prosper in peace. The death toll will continue to rise and the US public will demand thier military sons come home. Then I fear the real bloodletting will commence.
My ignorance of Iraqi cultural complexity allowed me to have great hope for thier future. I am still proud for the part I saw my nation take to quell a percieved threat with an added bonus of freeing an oppressed people. I fear those people dont know the chance they have because they cannot remember ever having been free.
Admittedly, I judge world events from the perspective of a relatively free and prosperous society. We Americans are imperfect and we make mistakes. But the great majority of Americans I know, are very tolerant of each other.(Tho,yes some few of us kill each other in the streets for a dollar, or a pair of sneakers!) But we have hope for a better world future. Our forefathers have paid the price for that hope with thier blood.
Yes we tend to be a very aggressive lot, but we are basically a generous family based society. As the world economy becomes a more equally balanced global one-and it will, perhaps the rest of the world will hold the same optimism I do. I still hold great hope for this planet. The broad pessimism I often see here on this (somewhat) global forum) continues to amaze and confuse me.


'Bind all of us together,
Ablaze with hope and free...'
Steve Harris

 

a nation of lambs or a nation of wolves?

dont worry - they are free in ways of their own, as you are bound in ways of your own

****

bin Laden offered a truce with Europe? That is historic chance for you to achieve peace - open the door and so on.

It is a very funny thing with your attitudes

3 years ago when macedonians didnt agree to negotiate with the albanian terrorists, they were the bad guys. They didnt want to expand the minority rights, held on to old "uneuropean" views for society rights, unjustice and domination, promoted war and blood... in short - they had a long way to mature up and reach the advanced "european values" and a lot to "improve" their society

(Then macedonian leaders saw their army is not capable to deal - unless they used the methods Milosevic employed - and since they didnt want to risk international condemnation - agreed to negotiate and amnesty the murderers with the involvement of NATO - the top murderer now leads a party in parliament)

Today, you say with terrorists one must never negotiate. War must continue until the last one is killed. bin Ladin is a monster that deserves only rather unhumane dealing with.
where is the "european" and civilized here?
is the difference that Ali Ahmeti commanded the death of 100 people, and bin Ladin - 5000? or is it that those were some backwards and mean-behaving towards minorities people, so terrorists were only defending the rights of their countrymen.
while you are civilized and democratic, so terrorists are bastards trying to destroy or rule the world.


How would you accept the idea of making al-Qaeda a member of the UN?
Who is stuck and backwards now? who is unwilling to mature?

 

How would you accept the idea of making al-Qaeda a member of the UN?
Who is stuck and backwards now? who is unwilling to mature?

I respect your point of view sir, and you are apparently much more informed in thew politics of the world than I.
Hower to ask the above question of me in any sincerity, shows me we have little to gain through a continued dialogue.

Al-Qaeda is not a nation at all. If you are implying to me that my failure to wish to deal with this organization as a legitimate national body, makes me backwards and unwilling to mature, then YES in your eyes I will gladly remain so. This group specifically targets civilian innocents regardless of race, age, creed, or any affiliation. I understand that my country has killed many innocents as well, but waging combat in civilian locals has ALWAYS resulted in such tragic loss. As horrible as this is, it is the way the world has waged war for centuries. MOST nations have been on the giving and recieving end of this horror. But, an organization of men that INTENTIONALLY target anonymous civilians (women and children alike), I hope will NEVER be accepted at a gathering of world leaders whose goal is to attain peace for ALL.

Respectfully,

 

@ Grobar: Yeah, he offered peace with Europe, not the US. The inference from the statement would be they would continue with attacks against the US. Do you feel that Europe should agree to this truce with Bin Laden, knowing full well that he will continue with the terrorist atrocities.

Is it a case, with you, that as long as it isnt on our doorstep then its okay?

I know which stance to me is 'stuck and backwards'.

-glas-

 

Regardless of why I think the war on Iraq certainly didn't do anything to help the war on terrorism.

Mal

 

well guys (or just by-tor), I think you bit misunderstood grobar; I guess he just wanted to point out that abovecited definition (made by by-tor as reply to his post) used to be definiton ie. of jewish fighters for Israel.. or more recently muslim fighters for Palestina
or .. Balcan related .. UCK.. or Russia related .. Chechens .. or .. Zappatists.. or.. one could go like this forever

just.. open your eyes.. don't be hypocritical.. don't let yourself be fooled by Television; judge things separately and compactly too; look at history... just think.. make your own assesment .. on your own experiences.. on things you know .. not just on what is presented to you by medias, what is shown to you by medias - they are not lying you, but they are not telling you whole truth either

are terrorists bad? or good? or better to say : is this legitimate way? I guess it depends...on who are terrorists .. and, tell me, who are terrorists? And then tell me.. is terrorism legitimate? Can you tell is not for all terroristic group that ever existed? And what is good aproach to terrorism then? I guess it again depends who are those terrorists in case, eh?

____________________________________________________


ad bin Ladin's offer of peace - well he is just earning political capital of the fact Spain is retrating, imho; anyway by retreating from Iraq one is not doing things in favor of terrorists - if nation wants to get out of Iraq and would not do it just because of principle "not compromise with terrorists" - then the nation is actually doing something in respect of terrorists and that's bad thing imho; it's dictated by terrorism.. uh .. sucks badly, no?

well, my english sucks, i'm sorry; achtun said it very well anyway

_____________

btw sorry, gro, for working with your post

 

Talking will always be the best approach to tackling terrorism, but this can only happen when the terrorists are willing to stop their atrocities, at least for the duration of the 'talks'.

With Al Qaida this isnt the case. IMO that means no talk, only fight and (try to) defeat them.

And your English is great btw

-glas-

 

Regardless of how 'blinded' I am by the media(BTW, I feel you are equally blinded-the most accurate 'vision' of world events likely lies somewhere 1/2 between our two views. The fact that I am able and willing to acknowledge that fact should be at least a little testament that I AM somewhat open-minded and un-brainwashed). But when you talk of comparing men fighting for the rights of thier 'minority' groups, to groups that SPECIFICALLY target civilians at random, you lose all credibility with me. If you will tell me any cause or agenda merits such action, and honestly believe that, I truely feel sorry for your loss. I will gladly wear any label you choose for me. I'll stand by my convictions that such tactics are abhorent regardless of the 'cause' they try to promote.